Pratchett II: The Wrath of Om

[alguien]

I have to say, the first couple of chapters are immense. And fooking dark for a children's novel.

Agreed. Just got mine last night and am about 100 pages in. Whoa. :stunned:

But already I'm sensing a return to form. Even at the outset, this one seems a lot better constructed that Unseen Academicals. (which I did like, but not as much as Pratchett's usual)

[Galactus]

I've ordered it. I'm a bit cautious, Pratchett has got more and more preachy/didactic in his last few years. (admittedly as he tackles progressively more difficult subjects) and it has lead me to enjoy his books less. (I tend to argue with the author in my head, not fun)

[lokisnow]

oh wow, whoa, completely nailed me with the coda to the book,

got me teary eyed the way Pratchett handled that particular proposal, very beautiful and elegant and wonderful. I love that Tiffany gets such a great ending to what I presume is the final Tiffany book. And the bit where she flies up and 'wears midnight' nice twist on the metaphor.

Up there with A Hatfull of Sky and Nation as some of Pratchett's best stuff. In a way it's a bit repetitive in terms of the plotting, but worth it for the sendoff Pratchett gives her, sorting everything out, so to speak. I also liked the way Nanny Ogg featured in the book.

At times the book is suprisingly meta to the other thirty-ish Discworld books. It consciously echoes moments from a broad swath of the books, whether its small Gods, Men at Arms, Night Watch, Thief of Time, Witches books, or even Tiffany's prior adventure in A Hat Full of Sky, she herself remarks on the similarity of the Hiver and the Cunning Man.

And I do love that the book doesn't have the same poignant infuriating sense of unjust loss that permeates the end of Nation, that we get a bit of a happier resolution than the loneliness and unrequited love that caps off that book--although those aspects are what make it Pratchett's most sophisticated and affecting work

But yeah, I'd put this in Pratchett's overall top ten works, for certain, it uses the repetition of theme and plot the same way that Night Watch did, in an inventive and new way that deepens the characters and enriches the experience.

[Iskaral Pust]

Why do you say "teacher"? Not - writer?

Otherwise i agree. That scene and many more like it is why i consider Carpe Jugulum to be the best Witches book. Hard, hard choices and well thought out adult solutions, problems and questions. From Vampires themselves to Mightily Oats and Granny.

The choice was very deliberate. He definitely grew as a writer over the years but I think his true vocation and vision is to teach us humanity. It was littered throughout his earlier books but gained confidence and heft as he went on. In the example I gave, he was embracing that role as teacher. It probably peaks in NightWatch, although Small Gods and Nation come close.

Some other writers are teachers too, but not all by a long way. So to say he grew as a writer does not sufficiently capture the point.

I know some people (Galactus for example) see this teaching as preaching and it detracts from the books for them. I don't think I would enjoy the books half as much as I do if it were just about the parody, wit, characters and plot suspense. They are just the media to tell the real story.

David Gemmell is like that too, although telling a quite different underlying story in a quite different way. The books on the surface are only half the enjoyment.

[lokisnow]

I agree, and I got what you meant by growing as a teacher. I tend to think of it, when I run across a passage that particularly speaks to me, 'ah, he is so very wise.' It's a tremendously good thing and it's why I regularly reread Pratchett, it reminds me of reading Mark Twain, quite often. I also think that's why his strongest works (to me) are not the straight up satires and parodies but the more character driven titles like Small Gods, The Truth, Night Watch, The Tiffany series, and Nation.

Another thought on I Shall Wear Midnight:

I think Pratchett intends for Esk to have an active role in the next Vimes book, and I think her (and witchery in general) as a factor in Ankh Morpork is going to be a big part of the next book.

also, I think the Cunning Man is a much better reworking of the Summoning Dark concept from Thud, it's a strong concept, but Vimes works better with concrete villains like in Men at Arms or Night Watch, and Thud at times plodded because of the clash. That said, Vimes struggle with the Summoning Dark is much more interesting than Tiffany's easy triumph over the Cunning Man. And the same problem rears its head once again for Pratchett, the heroes of his recent novels are so competent and effective they are almost boring and it is only their cleverness that really saves them from cardboard land. It is worth pointing out that every one of his stars are completely different in characterization, despite having the same problem of being excessively awesome. Vimes, Carrot, Angua, Vetinari, Tiffany, Granny Weatherwax, Susan, Lu Tze, De Worde, and Nanny Ogg are all extremely unique, quite different personalities yet complete, often conflicted characters with their own set of strengths and weaknesses. Gets back to that humanity thing Isk was talking about. Or the canaries or nettles in this most recent book.

[Galactus]

I think it's just that Pratchett is coming across as more and more smug. A kind of "Hah! I know so much better than all those plebs!" thing.

[Poobah]

I've ordered it. I'm a bit cautious, Pratchett has got more and more preachy/didactic in his last few years. (admittedly as he tackles progressively more difficult subjects) and it has lead me to enjoy his books less. (I tend to argue with the author in my head, not fun)

I think it's just that Pratchett is coming across as more and more smug. A kind of "Hah! I know so much better than all those plebs!" thing.

I don't get this at all.

[Artas]

Galactus, can you give an example of this recent smugness?

[alguien]

Another thought on I Shall Wear Midnight:

I think Pratchett intends for Esk to have an active role in the next Vimes book, and I think her (and witchery in general) as a factor in Ankh Morpork is going to be a big part of the next book.

also, I think the Cunning Man is a much better reworking of the Summoning Dark concept from Thud, it's a strong concept, but Vimes works better with concrete villains like in Men at Arms or Night Watch, and Thud at times plodded because of the clash. That said, Vimes struggle with the Summoning Dark is much more interesting than Tiffany's easy triumph over the Cunning Man. And the same problem rears its head once again for Pratchett, the heroes of his recent novels are so competent and effective they are almost boring and it is only their cleverness that really saves them from cardboard land. It is worth pointing out that every one of his stars are completely different in characterization, despite having the same problem of being excessively awesome. Vimes, Carrot, Angua, Vetinari, Tiffany, Granny Weatherwax, Susan, Lu Tze, De Worde, and Nanny Ogg are all extremely unique, quite different personalities yet complete, often conflicted characters with their own set of strengths and weaknesses. Gets back to that humanity thing Isk was talking about. Or the canaries or nettles in this most recent book.

Yes, I wondered about this very much:

Who the hell is Eskarina's son!?! That was kind of just thrown in there at the end. Was it the hare running around on fire? Or was it Preston?

Which leads me to:

What was up with the flaming hare?

Questions aside, I very much enjoyed this book. Nanny Ogg was wonderful, the villain was perhaps one of the most chilling I've ever read in Discworld.

I guessed from the British cover (the old woman carrying the crook) that she was an old version of Tiffany. This was one of his most satisfying endings ever. I was expecting him to bring Tiffany and Roland together, but was pleasantly surprised with how he resolved the matter. Loved the shout outs and cameos to Mightily Oats, the Watch, and of course Eskarina.

I must say that this one was a return to form. Well done!

[Galactus]

Galactus, can you give an example of this recent smugness?

It's generally how... It somehow feels like he's gone from gently poking fun at the follies ofthe world to offering his own.

[Artas]

Well, OK, but I was hoping for something a bit more specific. :) An example, a quote...

[Galactus]

I finished it. It's way better than UA, but hardly his best work. The Cunning Man was something of a typical Pratchettian villain and not very interesting. It's still got the same kind of elitism that I liked as a teenager but find more and more annoying nowadays, but it's a good read.

I thought the best bit was with Letitia and he Duchess. The bit where Tiffany does the enire "I can't imagine her delivering a baby in that dress" and then going "Wait a minute, I totally can." was great. And Nanny Ogg remains awesome.

Esks' reappearance made me want to re-read Equal Rites.

[DemiNymph]

Finally got my paws on Midnight and finished it. I did not enjoy this very much. It is definitely not Young Adults material but firmly in the Adults category imo. It was very dark and I wasn't in the right frame of mind to read all that. I did find the tone of the book a bit preachy, like Unseen Academicals, and Tiffany a bit too smug. Maybe she has set herself apart so much that she's lost some humanity.

I do like the villian, some of the cameos, the resolution of Roland+ Tiff. And Preston especially. Isn't he a dear?

Unfortunately Tiff got rid of the villian too easily, there was not much dramatic direction there, it was all over in 2 pages. I didn't realise the fight was over until after a bit. They were all talking and then I was like, Oh, so he's really dead already? Then I had to go back to reread.

Also, didn't Granny and Mrs Proust meet already in Equal Rites?

[Galactus]

Also, didn't Granny and Mrs Proust meet already in Equal Rites?

Wasn't that what the entire "Older witches had been clever for a lot longer." bit was about?

[DemiNymph]

Wasn't that what the entire "Older witches had been clever for a lot longer." bit was about?

It could be a culture or language difference thing. I guessed it referred to that but I didn't get how it related.

[ribblefizz]

Yes, I wondered about this very much:

Who the hell is Eskarina's son!?! That was kind of just thrown in there at the end. Was it the hare running around on fire? Or was it Preston?

I would be thrilled if anyone has any insight on this. At first I thought it was

Preston, but earlier in the story, Preston says that his mother taught him to read and write, and that didn't go over well with his father. I can't really see Esk settling down with someone who's hostile to education, especially after her experiences with Simon and the UU and so forth. And I don't remember precisely, but I don't think Preston was in any particular danger at that point in time (when Esk says she has to protect her son)

.

I know that endings aren't always Pratchett's strong point, but this one particularly flummoxed me.

(By the way, hello; first time poster here - it amuses me that the only place on the web I could find where someone's asking this particular question about Pratchett, is a forum dedicated to the Martin series which I just discovered, and fell irretrievably into, three weeks ago. Serendipity!)

[Gertrude]

'tis fate. Welcome :)

[lokisnow]

(By the way, hello; first time poster here - it amuses me that the only place on the web I could find where someone's asking this particular question about Pratchett, is a forum dedicated to the Martin series which I just discovered, and fell irretrievably into, three weeks ago. Serendipity!)

The Lady is fairly good with the dice, you know.

--

As I said earlier, I believe that Esk is going to be significant in the next Vimes book, and perhaps her son will be there as well. What's the family history of Moist?

On the other hand, considering her mastery of Time it could be referring to the Time boys in Thief of Time, but their mother is made fairly clear, a retcon isn't impossible though.

[ribblefizz]

As I said earlier, I believe that Esk is going to be significant in the next Vimes book, and perhaps her son will be there as well. What's the family history of Moist?

On the other hand, considering her mastery of Time it could be referring to the Time boys in Thief of Time, but their mother is made fairly clear, a retcon isn't impossible though.

True; I'm trying not to obsess over it, and chalk it up as one more thing to look forward to about a new Vimes book. (With deference to the folk upthread who don't care for Vimes; he's my favorite, and reminds me of someone I used to know to boot.)

I don't think much has ever been said about Moist's origins - that's an interesting thought!

Do you think Esk's "mastery of Time" accounts any for her physical appearance in ISWM - that is, could she have aged more quickly than usual as a result of time traveling? IIRC, she was 8-10 or so in Equal Rites, and Granny was ancient even then - as I was reading Esk's descriptions I kept wondering, "How old can Granny BE?"

Or maybe Granny was merely portrayed as "ancient" through the eyes of Esk, in the way that 28 is "middle-aged" to the average 10 year old... Tiffany certainly seems much older than 15, too, come to that.

Thanks for the welcomes - I should be receiving A Storm of Swords any day now, so you'll probably be seeing more of me now that I know where to come for discussion.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

Do you think Esk's "mastery of Time" accounts any for her physical appearance in ISWM - that is, could she have aged more quickly than usual as a result of time traveling? IIRC, she was 8-10 or so in Equal Rites, and Granny was ancient even then - as I was reading Esk's descriptions I kept wondering, "How old can Granny BE?"

Or maybe Granny was merely portrayed as "ancient" through the eyes of Esk, in the way that 28 is "middle-aged" to the average 10 year old... Tiffany certainly seems much older than 15, too, come to that.

There's also the complication that all of Lancre is like 20 years younger than the rest of the world. In Wyrd Sisters (I think) Granny and Nanny didn't feel like waiting for the rightful heir to the throne of Lancre to grow up so they did a trick that fast forwarded the kingdom through time...which was very confusing for occasional visitors who noticed that Lancrastrian acquaintances had hardly aged at all over the previous decades.

On elitism, there were places in IswM where Tiffany high-handedly does something for someone else's own good, and they don't like it (cleaning up Amber's mother's kitchen for one), and she realises that she's in danger of thinking of people as things.