NFL Thread IV: The Hype Machine Continues

[Bronn Stone]

Yeah, how did that happen? I thought the rule was that if you caught an INT in your own end zone it was a touchback? Or did he catch it outside the endzone, run it into the endzone, and then get fucking tackled? Futility bowl indeed.

Caught it in the end zone, fell down, got up, ran out to the three, looped back into the end zone and got tackled.

Highlight available on NFL.com site. No doubt as to the call.

[Narishma Reborn]

Yeah, I think it's just that the difference between having an average NFL safety and an amazing one is seen as being relatively small (compared to other positions). Although having seen the impact of Polamalu, Dawkins and Reed, I might disagree even with that part.

I think that safeties are getting more important, since the Big Play is becoming more of a focus in the NFL.

I'm not sure I agree with you all on the average vs. amazing safety comparison. My reason is because I'm a Colts fan... and I know the difference between our defense with Bob Sanders and our defense without Bob Sanders... and it is freaking huge.

[Maithanet]

I'm not sure I agree with you all on the average vs. amazing safety comparison. My reason is because I'm a Colts fan... and I know the difference between our defense with Bob Sanders and our defense without Bob Sanders... and it is freaking huge.

I agree, but how much of it do you think is leadership and how much is actual talent? In addition, how good is Sanders' backup? If he is well below average, then my point still stands.

[The Wedge]

I agree, but how much of it do you think is leadership and how much is actual talent? In addition, how good is Sanders' backup? If he is well below average, then my point still stands.

Leadership, field awareness, being able to read an offense, being able to relay changes to the rest of the defense quickly.

This is a talent in and of itself. Didn't we just go through the whole "play calling vs. ability to execute" discussion in the last thread?

[Insert Edit]

Yeah, y'know, safety is generally one of the least important positions on the field...so long as you have a competent one. However if you have one that's awful, one that's consistently positioned wrong, one that doesn't get deep enough, one that bites on fakes....it can singlehandedly undo everything that's good and pure about your defense.

I call it the Roy Williams corollary.

Yep, and god forbid your starting two safeties end up on the shelf, and a guy in street clothes a couple of months earlier ends up playing in the Superbowl. That guy, Etric Pruitt ends up biting hard on fakes twice, leading to the longest TD run in superbowl history, and then allowing a halfback option TD pass.

<sigh>

[Jaime L]

Although having seen the impact of Polamalu, Dawkins and Reed, I might disagree even with that part.

I'm not sure I agree with you all on the average vs. amazing safety comparison. My reason is because I'm a Colts fan... and I know the difference between our defense with Bob Sanders and our defense without Bob Sanders... and it is freaking huge.

I agree with both of you. My comparison was the awful safety versus the average one, that you suffer more with incompetence at the safety position than you would with most others. These guys are the last line of defense.

But I'm a safety guy. Personaly, it's one of my favorite positions to watch on the field. I think exceptional safeties are still game changers in a way few positions can match. I think Polamalu's ability to freelance and read the entire offensive scheme (rather than one man) makes him more valuable than a James Harrison or a Champ Bailey could hope to be because of his unique ability to disrupt an offense. Bob Sanders ability to fill gaps is absolutely huge for the Colts. I thought as Sean Taylor developed he would change the Redskins defense from good to elite solely with his presence and instincts. If you look at the best defenses in football, they all have elite safeties and you can't tell me the Broncos and Saints defense didn't improve in part because of the addition of wiley old Dawkins and Sharper.

So let me say I misspoke. Modify my statement about it being one of the less important positions on the field to say that what I meant is that it's one the more devalued positions on the field and that comptent safeties can be found without too much looking. Safeties rarely go in the top 20 overall and in the mysterious NFL hierarchy of positional importance probably falls well after QB, LT, DE, DT, WR, CB, OLB and even probably RB. Safeties are looked at like guards (though to me an elite safety is far more of a game changer than an elite guard) you can plug veteran guys in without missing much of a beat. The Redskins who value safeties more than any team in the league (they're the only team to use two overall top 6 picks on safeties ever) were still able to find two competent ones in the 5th and 7th rounds after Sean Taylor's murder.

[Mya Stone]

Jaws gem of the night:

"I have never been more stimulated in a room before."

(On his visit to training camp with Drew Brees and Sean Payton.)

A comedy writer couldn't write his shit. It's absolute gold.

[Jaime L]

Jaws gem of the night:

"I have never been more stimulated in a room before."

(On his visit to training camp with Drew Brees and Sean Payton.)

A comedy writer couldn't write his shit. It's absolute gold.

:rofl:

Too funny.

[dalThor]

Caught it in the end zone, fell down, got up, ran out to the three, looped back into the end zone and got tackled.

And for those of you who haven't been watching the Lions for decades, this is the exact sort of moronic thing they've been doing for years. See also: Michigan State in the Heathcote days.

[ZANNI_1276]

Not that many folks care specifically but there seems to be alot of anti-mangini sentiment on the board , I really never understood why though. that is until this year...But this is a funny, yet peculiar story of an organization that has turned into a soap opera, at least it looks like the owner is getting a clue and may or may not have people who know what they are talking about giving good cousel, finally!

Browns fired GM George Kokinis (Mangini's puppet GM). Kokinis was escorted out of the building by a bevy of security officials - and it wasn't pretty, alleged blow up in the offices at Berea, reports are perhaps Mangini threw him under the bus in a move to save his own neck (shocking - one of his "alleged" best friends BTW) or it has something to do with decieving the owner Randy Lerner in some way (probably that the two of them said they knew what they knew how to run a pro organization).

It was the first sign of life the organization has made since Mangini put a voodoo spell on everyone into thinking he is a headfootball coach. Second firing in a week of one of Mangini's top men, and well the GM being GM only in title, I believe Kokinis did nothing but sharpen cases pencils everday and reported to Mangini if anyone parked crooked in the players parking lot in the event they can levy fines for it.

But that is not the interesting part, it seems that Mangini's stature of supreme dictator may have finally come to a hault....

It seems the owner has come to his senses about the tragic mistake of hiring Mangini, through two consultants he brought in, one being Bernie Kosar, former QB/hometown hero and the browns/giants former GM Ernie Accorsi (rumored, but very credible reports from numerous media outlets). Reports are the browns are going to hire Accorsi as a consultant and Ernie is to perhaps assume the president role and oversee all football opperations all the while groom Kosar for that specific role...

What does this means to Mangini?

Clock is ticking on the "genuis" (what an inappropriate name) and if the gods are willing they will strip him of all organizational and personnel power and either will happen:

A. He quits because the owner took all his power away (best case scenario) or

B. He is just the coach and leader on the field and nature will run its course and he will get shit canned quite possibly at the end of the year (again I am being as hopeful it will be as soon as possible)...

Either way it looks like the sqeeze is on Mangini and as dysfunctional as it sounds to even discuss firing him this early into his tenure if they have come to the conclusion he was a bad hire and poor fit, do no delay the inevitable and cut bait and send him to the bread line...

I never understood that hate for Mangini.

But now I do...

I have been given a crash course over here on anti-mangini sentiment. He is basically poor at every aspect coaching to communicating, to selecting assistants (tannenbaum did most of the heavy lifting in NY), between the player personnel (he is utterly clueless by the way) and well the actual coaching part, he has set this organization back 3-4 years in his short time here. I know it is hard to beleive and alomst unfathomable, but folks, it is true, he took a really bad team and some how has made it epically worse and i am talking HISTORICALLY AWFUL, statistic shattering bad.

Most people I am sure can give a shit but bottom line, no fan base deserves to be kicked in the jimmy constantly. For instance, as much as I dislike the raiders, I still feel sympathy for the fan base, well at least the ones who don't piss on other fans but I do feel bad for the avid fan who has just watched all the tradition and memories get flushed down to the toilet by a lunatic hell bent on showing the world how brilliant they are, where in fact they are nothing but idiots who should be letting someone who knows what they are doing to call the shots. Not that I am comparing Mangini to Davis, I mean, the game passed Davis but he was succesful in his era. And now he needs someone to change his diaper, it happens, people get old.

This season sucks so far - at least for me, I have heard people joke that they would pay not to see a game, christ, I have season tickets I can't even give a way...

but it looks the Browns are coming to thier senses and have found a an antidote for this enchantment spell Mangini has cast over the organization....

[DanteGabriel]

We Pats fans coulda told you something about Ratgini, Zanni. It seemed like a disastrous move to me from the beginning, when he was hired in Cleveland. Especially before a GM was hired.

You have my condolences. Really Ratgini should just cut to the chase and get a head coaching gig in Oakland. He and Al Davis deserve each other.

[Prince of the North]

Jaws gem of the night:

"I have never been more stimulated in a room before."

(On his visit to training camp with Drew Brees and Sean Payton.)

A comedy writer couldn't write his shit. It's absolute gold.

Mya,

I laughed out loud when I heard that but it was Chucky who was gushing about it. He is very passionate about football and I'm not sure anyone could have a bigger hard-on for an elite QB like Brees. Although, after his bad QB experiences (many of his own making) in TB maybe that's understandable? ;)

[CelticBrennus]

I have season tickets I can't even give a way...

I am in Cleveland for the foreseeable future, and I will take some free Browns tickets.

[boiled leather]

Scott Ostler's column in the SF Chron today about the Raider's is a delightful read. How can you not read this and immediately not want to pitch it to the Women in Danger network as a TV movie for them?

Back to our regularly scheduled football discussion.

[Gold Storm]

Thinking about the epitaph of failure that is the Browns this year, got me thinking about how many bad teams there are without hope for things getting better soon, the Browns, Redskins, and Raiders. At least KC, Detroit, and Tampa can say things are looking up, or they can get better. Tennessee can call this year a fluke and work on for next year; however the Browns, Redskins, and Raiders lack even that because their front office is in shambles and there is not a group of young core players to build a team around.

Since their return, the Browns have had four head coaches Chris Palmer, Butch Davis, Romeo Crennel and Eric Magini (Terry Robiskie was an intern coach after Davis was fired/left) and four different GMs, Dwight Clark, Butch Davis, Phil Savage, and George Kokinis. The team has been a disaster and will continue to be one 'till they have some semblance of stability and control in their organization. It has gotten so bad, that I know Steeler fans that no longer consider the Browns a real rival.

[DanteGabriel]

It has gotten so bad, that I know Steeler fans that no longer consider the Browns a real rival.

That's probably because, whatever the official traditions may hold, the Baltimore Ravens are the Browns that were once the Steelers' rivals.

[Mexal]

I have two questions that I'm geniunely curious about.

Jaime/Maithanet: What would you guys do if you were the GM to get this team in a better position to win over the next 3 years?

Browns fans: Same question as above.

These questions came about from a discussion I was having with a friend of mine who's a pretty big Browns fan. We looked at the team and realized that they have absolutely zero skill players on their team. I thought they needed to get a franchise QB and with Locker, Bradford, Tebow and McCoy coming out, I thought they had a good chance this year, especially with their offensive line which is pretty good. He thought they needed a running back first to take pressure off of whatever QB they got but I thought they could do that later in the draft or the next year but needed a QB as soon as possible to start grooming.

Anyway, just curious.

[ZANNI_1276]

I have two questions that I'm geniunely curious about.

Jaime/Maithanet: What would you guys do if you were the GM to get this team in a better position to win over the next 3 years?

Browns fans: Same question as above.

Anyway, just curious.

With the Browns it is not that easy...so fricking sad, because it is not just a GM issue, it is top to bottom issue. So here is what I do bit long...But this isn't just the Browns BTW, it is applicable for any of the forementioned floundering, bottom feeders teams...Except the Raiders, no one wants to work there, again my sympathy's raider fans...

1. Fire Mangini immediately and issue an appolgy to the fans that he was a poor, rash choice and the owner just got over excited about the prospect of talking with him we ignored the proper process of actually interviewing other qualified candidates and ignoring the front office aspect of the organization and issue "a mea culpea SORRY". I know it sounds bad, but it was a poor choice and it is evdient Mangini is inept at coaching on Sundays let alone having any of the responsibilities of an NFL front office, any further time he spends here will set this team back to the stone ages.

2. I hire either Carl Peterson or Ernie Accorsi - that caliber of veteran NFL front office mind and presence and give them head of football opperations, president and ownership percentage whatever it takes to bring them on and agree to help fix this mess...It appears the owner wants to do that and have the veteran Front Office guy groom Kosar to take his place eventually and be the face of the organization, Kosar is many things but smart and savvy is one of them so I am comfortable and have no problem with that as long as the guy I am bringing in doesn't mind teaching him the trade.

3. Let the President/head of OPPS hire a GM and restructure the entire front office the way the see fit, revamp the scouting department. Because I am going to the route of a veteran like accorsi or peterson they can gamble on perhaps going in the direction of a young up and coming GM or someone they feel can assist them with cleaning up the toxic mess, or maybe the seasoned veteran route, like a guy like reese or casserly but again I prefer to go a little bit younger and have them work under the president of opperations but that is the call of the president. No one from the Baltimore Front office or any one associated with NE. Been there done that - twice!!!

4. Allow the President of opperations and the GM to hire a coach that fits and agrees with thier philisophy. People here think we can Mangini that Cowher, Shanahan, Holmgren or Gruden as an option here in Cleveland. I don't think any are an option and frankly not sure I want them because: A - we are a total mess, none of those guys will want to come here and B specifically these guys who will want the power that my Front Office won't give them, been there done that. If he was receptive I would talk to Marty. One he has a past here, still highly regarded. Two - he is really good at "fixing" teams. If I went young up and coming coach, which I would prefer personally alla Tomlin, Mcdaniels, Harbaugh, I find the best veteran coaching staff that money could buy, hopefully with assitants with HC expierence and just for giggles I would put feelers out to the Offensive Coordinator at Auburn -Malzahn, who is the best offensive mind at any level of football right now to see his interest of making the jump to the NFL...

5. Once the coach and his staff is hired, I evaluate the roster. This would take about a week, not long at all. Overall we have little to no talent. I am not kidding you when I say the 1999 expansion team had more than this roster. Basically Joe Thomas, Josh Cribbs, to a certain degree Alex Mack, D jackson and Eric Wright are about my only guys I have that can start and play for another team in the NFL. That it is it...

6. We do have 11 picks in the draft this year. I try to trade out of whatever spot I am in this year to acquire more picks if possible if I can't get the big three I have targetted. If not, I do not, REPEAT do not take a qB under any circumstances with my number 1 pick. Period. At least with my first pick, ideally if I take a franchise QB over the next 3 years I want to do it in rounds 2 or higher. But I take the best football player, whether that is Suh, Berry or Mays....Then with the rest of my picks I build up both the defensive front 7 and offensive line, and CB. That is it for the 2010 draft. Build this bad boy inside out. Trade Brady Quinn and DA for pennies on the draft dollar, both need out and a fresh start and the organization needs as many picks as possible in the next 3 years. (Intersting fact is Tebow maybe had in the later rounds, not that I am keen on him but I would take a look see with a 2 or lower pick)

7. Sign a veteran QB, WR and RB in the offseason. Literally stop gaps, guys who have just enough in the tank for about 2 years. Kerry Collins/Culpepper. Guys with something to prove that they can still play at this level. The big key being that they are good locker room guys who know thier number one job aside from contributing on the field is mentoring and teaching thier young team mates what they need to do year round to be succesfull football players and win in this league. No bad apples no guys that can't work with younger players.

8. Play the kids and key veterans mentioned above in 2010, be as competitve as possible and look to win 5-6 games at best. I am a realist..

9. 2011 Draft I take the best offensive weapon available...RB or WR (Perhaps Ryan Mallet - maybe but that is the only QB I would even consider). Continue to draft/beef up my front 7 on defense and stock up on DB's and best available players in later rounds, avoid project type players and look for the "plug and play" college kids we have ignored for the past 10 years that other teams draft...

10. Now barring they play ball and there is no work stoppage this year I am making the leap, to decent but not great...In the offseason I try to add the best veteran FA available at a position in need. I would prefer this guy's pedigree to come from a championship caliber ball club or a guy so hungry to win a championship he would literally sell his soul to get one, alla a Brian Dawkins type of player. This is the year I bring in good savy vets to plug some holes at a reasonable hit on the cap space...

11. 2011 Season we should start looking to be a formidable club, winning games we should, and sneaking a couple in that we have no business winning...But should be a really fun and exciting team to watch, HC and staff is gelling and the Front Office is sticking to its plan...

12. 2012 Draft, again sticking to the mantra of best available game changer on the board, if it is a QB so be it but preferably not, like I said, perfect world he is on our roster and was a late round draft pick.

13. This is the year we contend for a playoff birth. From here on out we stick with the philosophy and culture of drafting and developing players and only reaching in the FA market for either "special" circumstances or solid gap veterans to plug holes and add depth. And for the next 5-8 years we should be contenders and have a solid foundation in place to remain a great organization.

Basically I do just the opposite of what the Cleveland Browns have done for the past 10 years. Man it sounds easy but if it was why the f^ck haven't they done it or any of the other perrenial bottom feeders caught on that this is sort of the cliff notes version of building a contender, not a one and done type of team but a team that will be competitve for the duration not just a flash in the pan...

[Maithanet]

I have two questions that I'm geniunely curious about.

Jaime/Maithanet: What would you guys do if you were the GM to get this team in a better position to win over the next 3 years?

Browns fans: Same question as above.

These questions came about from a discussion I was having with a friend of mine who's a pretty big Browns fan. We looked at the team and realized that they have absolutely zero skill players on their team. I thought they needed to get a franchise QB and with Locker, Bradford, Tebow and McCoy coming out, I thought they had a good chance this year, especially with their offensive line which is pretty good. He thought they needed a running back first to take pressure off of whatever QB they got but I thought they could do that later in the draft or the next year but needed a QB as soon as possible to start grooming.

Anyway, just curious.

If I were in charge of the Skins, I would get a veteran coach who we can rely on to be at least decent. I would make it clear to this coach this his job is safe for at least two years, at which point we will expect the team to be moving in the right direction (but probably not yet good). Then I would start drafting O lineman. I would disagree to some extent with GoldStorm's assessment that we don't have much young talent on our team. The problem is that all of that young talent is on the defense. Our offense is either old or young and dissapointing. Samuels, our only pro bowl O lineman, just retired with a neck injury (I think it was the right decision). This leaves guys who are either old and injury prone (Randy Thomas), never were any good (Casey Rabach, Mike Williams and others) or young and only average (Heyer).

I have been a believer in Campbell, but this year he has played very poorly. I know that it's virtually impossible to play well as a QB if you don't have an O line, but in times when the protection is there, we've had wide open people on deep routes (allegedly his strong suit) that he has missed. Definitely would have won the Panthers and the Chiefs game if he'd been able to exploit the other team's defensive breakdowns. Then we'd be a shitty team at 4-3, and the panic would be only at a muted roar. So, I would find an average, veteran quarterback to hold things down for two years. There's almost always such a player on the market. We stick with Campbell if that is not available. We do not, under any circumstances, waste a high draft pick on a qb right away. Drafting a qb is a crapshoot anyway; even the most promising prospects succeed only a little more than half the time. In a year or three, with a real O line, we can work on developing someone young and promising, so that they can learn on their feet rather than from their back.

Perhaps most importantly, we need to stop trading away draft picks for veteran players. I'm looking at you here Jason Taylor (one year loan - second round pick). And that certainly isn't the only example of this atrocious practice. It only makes sense if you are preparing to go deep in the playoffs. The last time the Redskins had any reason to think they would go deep in the playoffs was the 1999 season.

Most pressing needs I would address as a GM (in order): Left Tackle, Center, Right Tackle, Running Back (Portis has taken a lot of hits for a young guy), Quarterback.

[Mexal]

Honest question...do you think a late round QB could handle it? I know that it happens sometimes, that a late round QB does manage to be successful, but most of the time, when you look at the top QBs in the league, they were first round picks.

P. Manning, E. Manning, Rodgers, Rivers, Flacco, Big Ben, Ryan, Cutler, Palmer, McNabb

The only ones who are top quality that weren't are Brees (2nd round), Brady (6th round), Romo (undrafted) and Schaub (3rd round). I guess we can put Warner in this conversation as well. It's a big gamble to place your future in a mid to late round draft pick. It can work out though as seen.