Fort Hood Shooting - 3 Soldiers involved

[Lark the Sisterman]

Did Hasan speak of jihad? And not in the "some Muslims believe" sense of his powerpoint grand rounds presentation. I mean in a way that made it clear that he personally had declared war on his employers, the US military.

While it was maybe a stretch of the imagination to conclude from the presentation that Hassan had declared a war on his employees, it should have been clear that it's not a mere neutral enrichment class about Islam-

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/11/17/has...erpoint-slides/

I think if we're (as in the governments of the "free world") are going to be in the business of thought policing, we really need clearer definitions than common sense.

Thought policing? Is that your stand- that if we take some precautions and monitor people who are toying with lethal ideologies, we are going to live in 1984- the reality version?

And I see you don't buy into all that "free world" meme. Prudent mayhaps but have you ever spoken to someone who had to live under a totalitarian state, like the USSR for example? Cos where I live, we have tons of former USSR emigrants- not one of those I spoke to had a kind word to say about the Soviet regime. (though any other aspect of "mother Russia"- from food to high culture- was mentioned with great admiration and longing)

ETA- and "common sense" is not a definition but a way of looking at things and thinking about them. Maybe this way is beneath philosophers or radical thinkers, but I don't think our governments had reached that level quite that yet. I don't think that they can look down upon "common sense" with contempt. And certainly not our law enforcement agencies- god knows they could a use a doze of common sense.

[Devil Hanzo]

I'm not condemning Muslims for speaking against Wilders- by all means, they have every right to do so. However, I do condemn those Muslims who call for his death cos he "insulted Islam" or for whatever reason, which is precisely what that bloke in my link was doing. Calling for someone's death, no matter how deplorable his views seem to you, is simply unacceptable.

agreed.

I agree with you. If Jews have alternative courts for domestic issues in the UK and other countries, I don't see any reason why Muslims can't have something similar.

However- those courts should be operating under the UK's (or any other local) law and in no case should be allowed to contradict it. For example- polygamy or discrimination against women are simply unacceptable in the UK and (I hope) will never be negotiable. That's how the Jewish courts work- they will never be at odds with the local law- so no double standards here.

Also agree. They should take only what does not contridict the law of the nation. They should take what they can get and ask no more.

[Bellis]

While it was maybe a stretch of the imagination to conclude from the presentation that Hassan had declared a war on his employees, it should have been clear that it's not a mere neutral enrichment class about Islam-

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/11/17/has...erpoint-slides/

I've seen the slides. I don't know what the discussion that went with the slides was. Obviously, some of the audience was concerned, so his presentation itself must have been biased. By themselves, the collection of Quranic verses says very little to me about any ideology of the presenter.

The warning sign here may be more that he chose to talk about religion rather than medicine (if the talk was strictly supposed to be about medicine) - something that might require disciplinary action but might not necessarily point to any particular Jihadist or even Islamist intentions on his part.

Thought policing? Is that your stand- that if we take some precautions and monitor people who are toying with lethal ideologies, we are going to live in 1984- the reality version?

And I see you don't buy into all that "free world" meme. Prudent mayhaps but have you ever spoken to someone who had to live under a totalitarian state, like the USSR for example? Cos where I live, we have tons of former USSR emigrants- not one of those I spoke to had a kind word to say about the Soviet regime. (though any other aspect of "mother Russia"- from food to high culture- was mentioned with great admiration and longing)

ETA- and "common sense" is not a definition but a way of looking at things and thinking about them. Maybe this way is beneath philosophers or radical thinkers, but I don't think our governments had reached that level quite that yet. I don't think that they can look down upon "common sense" with contempt. And certainly not our law enforcement agencies- god knows they could a use a doze of common sense.

Lark, I feel self-conscious using phrases like free world, but I don't disparage any country that strives to be part of that ideal. As for the non-free world, my parents lived for several years in a country where their religious materials were confiscated by customs as they entered. That country was Saudi Arabia, and they're Muslims, just not the right kind.

But I don't think we're as far away from each other in our views on this as you think.

[Devil Hanzo]

I've seen the slides. I don't know what the discussion that went with the slides was. Obviously, some of the audience was concerned, so his presentation itself must have been biased. By themselves, the collection of Quranic verses says very little to me about any ideology of the presenter.

The warning sign here may be more that he chose to talk about religion rather than medicine (if the talk was strictly supposed to be about medicine) - something that might require disciplinary action but might not necessarily point to any particular Jihadist or even Islamist intentions on his part.

Lark, I feel self-conscious using phrases like free world, but I don't disparage any country that strives to be part of that ideal. As for the non-free world, my parents lived for several years in a country where their religious materials were confiscated by customs as they entered. That country was Saudi Arabia, and they're Muslims, just not the right kind.

But I don't think we're as far away from each other in our views on this as you think.

Bloody saudi arabia. Toying with crazies to stay in power, supported by teh states.

BAH.

[The Stranger]

Saudi Arabia: the evil Muslims we can ALL agree on...since it somehow became fashionable to treat the Taliban like an organic outgrowth of Pashtun society.

Although a book I read by a Lebanese reporter claims that the real tragedy of Saudi Arabia is the fact that the government keeps such effective hegemony over the flow of information that most outsiders can't see exactly how huge the proportion of Saudi citizens is which wants nothing to do with the religious backwardness held in place by their "government."

[alguien]

Wasn't sure if anyone linked to the Onion's article on the incident.

Thought it was fairly appropriate and (surprisingly) funny.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

New information from NPR regarding the investigation of Maj. Hasan prior to the shooting:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.p...oryId=120765741

From the article:

And at this point, let's freeze that frame for a moment: The FBI agent is reaching for the phone.

And let's go to Walter Reed. As NPR previously reported, Hasan's boss wrote a memo that harshly criticized Hasan.

Dr. Scott Moran, the chief of psychiatric residents at Walter Reed, said in that memo that Hasan had poor judgment and was unprofessional. Some colleagues had been troubled by a lecture Hasan gave about Islam. They felt that he was telling them that nonbelievers like them should go to hell on Earth. Hasan showed PowerPoint slides to back it up. Some supervisors had even wondered if Hasan might be psychotic. Much of this information, including the Islamic lecture, was in Hasan's training file. Every resident has a training file, a thick folder that's stored behind a secretary's desk at Walter Reed.

Now, let's go back to the FBI agent. He calls Walter Reed, but he doesn't get any of this information in the training file.

"I'm not surprised," Bowman says. "I'm not surprised at all."

The Wrong File

Bowman says here's what likely happened. It's routine: The agent calls Walter Reed's security office. Then a security officer calls the commander's office. And somebody pulls Hasan's personnel file, not the training file. They tell the FBI agent what's in the personnel file.

But sources at Walter Reed say personnel files in the military are pretty basic: rank, awards, military history. They say the negative details about Hasan were in his separate training file. But the FBI agent didn't meet with Hasan's supervisors or ask anybody at Walter Reed about the training file, according to sources. Bowman says if the agent had done that, things might have been different.

Interesting.

[The Progressive]

Hasan's boss wrote a memo that harshly criticized Hasan.

Dr. Scott Moran, the chief of psychiatric residents at Walter Reed, said in that memo that Hasan had poor judgment and was unprofessional. Some colleagues had been troubled by a lecture Hasan gave about Islam. They felt that he was telling them that nonbelievers like them should go to hell on Earth. Hasan showed PowerPoint slides to back it up. Some supervisors had even wondered if Hasan might be psychotic. Much of this information, including the Islamic lecture, was in Hasan's training file.

That's really interesting.

I see no rationale for splitting up those information into a separate file like that. Of course medical files are to be kept separately, but performance evaluation shouldn't be.

[Frog Eater]

That's really interesting.

I see no rationale for splitting up those information into a separate file like that. Of course medical files are to be kept separately, but performance evaluation shouldn't be.

In the military, your personnel file stays with you throughout your military career, and when you go before promotion or review boards, your personel file goes for review. A training file is local, and does not follow you around forever. The training file at Walter Reed did not follow Nidal to Ft. Hood. He gets a new one there.

When the FBI called and asked for his file, it was natural to send the personel file, the training file is local.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

New Report from CNN on the shooter and the ball drop in allowing his promotion:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/01/12/fort.hood.suspect/index.html

From the article:

The review outlines elements of Hasan's behavior that should have triggered supervisors and senior military officials to look more closely at his behavior.

It questions why Hasan was allowed to keep his security clearance after numerous questionable actions that should prevent military members from getting one.

Among those actions: a class presentation where he said the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were a war on Islam and that Islamic law was more powerful than the U.S. Constitution and justified suicide bombing, according to the official.

Questioning the Constitution is grounds for dismissal as an officer, as well as grounds for having a security clearance revoked or not awarded, the official said. Yet Hasan was given the clearance and continued to be promoted afterward.

During his time in Washington, Hasan's religious views became increasingly apparent. He took a trip to Mecca, Saudi Arabia, to take part in the Haj -- a pilgrimage that devout Muslims are expected to do at least once in their lifetimes if they are able.

In July, Hasan reported to his new position as a psychiatrist at Fort Hood. The report says supervisors knew he had poor performance reviews before the move but was posted at the large base because his poor work would not be as noticeable.

The report is expected to show that Hasan's superiors were all able to clearly see in his records that as an officer, medical student and a psychiatrist, Hasan was a repeat poor performer.

He took six years to graduate from medical school instead of the four years it takes most students. He was on academic probation for receiving numerous below average and failing grades between 1997 and 2007 at the Uniformed Services University of Health Sciences in Bethesda, Maryland, according to the official.

After graduation, Hassan began his internship in psychiatry, a four-year program at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington.

Very little changed in his performance reviews, and teachers and supervisors told him of their concerns. He did not see many patients and required monitoring. But the official with knowledge of the review said after being spoken to about his lacking performance, Hasan would focus and improve for a while before slipping back to performing poorly again.

Despite his history of poor grades and performance, Hasan's officer evaluations were strong including the words "satisfactory" and "outstanding." He was promoted to the rank of captain and then major in the standard same time spent in those ranks along with stronger performing colleagues.

Hasan was promoted from captain to major in May, military records show. Because of a shortage of majors in the medical corps, the promotion board was given the authority to promote captains who otherwise would not have been considered for a promotion, according to a U.S. military official who asked not to be identified in connection with discussing personnel matters possibly related to the Hasan investigation.

The Army appears to have made some grave mistakes in promoting Maj. Hasan.

[mormont]

During his time in Washington, Hasan's religious views became increasingly apparent. He took a trip to Mecca, Saudi Arabia, to take part in the Haj -- a pilgrimage that devout Muslims are expected to do at least once in their lifetimes if they are able.

What's the point being made here? That doing the Hajj is in some way evidence of extremism? (It's not. It's not even evidence of being unusually devout.) This appears to be either a stunning lack of knowledge of Islam or a complete non-sequitur.

Even apart from that, this whole article bears a close resemblance to the many previous ones linked in this thread where people engage in the time-honoured pastime of exercising hindsight to declare things to be 'warning signs' or 'grave mistakes', usually taking care not to do so on the record.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Mormont,

I agree suggesting that a Muslim taking the Haj is a "warning sign" is absurd.

That said his poor performance professionally coupled with his presentation asserting Sharia should trump the US Constitution at a professional conference should have been enough to deny him promotion.

[kairparavel]

What's the point being made here? That doing the Hajj is in some way evidence of extremism? (It's not. It's not even evidence of being unusually devout.) This appears to be either a stunning lack of knowledge of Islam or a complete non-sequitur.

Even apart from that, this whole article bears a close resemblance to the many previous ones linked in this thread where people engage in the time-honoured pastime of exercising hindsight to declare things to be 'warning signs' or 'grave mistakes', usually taking care not to do so on the record.

Prior to further consideration, my immediate reaction was the same. However, it's not a stand alone statement. It's just the final item in a list of things. Had no other observations been made, then the Hajj statement would be, on its own, outrageous.

As for hindsight, well, that's all there is. In other times and circumstances, I doubt he would have fallen through the cracks, so to speak. I'm not, nor have been nor will be, in the military, but I can only assume his promotion and station were set in motion by outside factors. That is to say, the toll of the war on the American military, the strain on personnel and administration and the outright shortage of officers directly played a part, adding up to 'undesirable/unsuitable' candidates getting promotions they otherwise would not have. (speculation mine) I can only imagine how many times this situation has played out over the past few years. And I don't mean devout Muslims moving up ranks. I mean anyone who ordinarily would not have.