World Cup 2010 - Prelude to South Africa

[Horza]

Well that's done and dusted.

Your 32 teams are:

South Africa, Algeria, Argentina, Australia, Brazil, Cameroon, Chile, Cote d'Ivoire, Denmark, England, France, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Honduras, Italy, Japan, Korea DPRK, Korea Republic, Mexico, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nigeria, Paraguay, Portugal, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Switzerland, United States and Uruguay.

Random thoughts:

All confederations are represented (Australia joined AFC in Jan 2006 after qualifing from the OFC-Conmebol playoff three months earlier), New Zealand and Honduras both return after last qualifying for Espana 1982.

No team from the Middle East qualified and Algeria is the only Muslim majority state represented (or does Nigeria just edge it?). Has the entry of Australia swung the AFC balance of power decisively to the East or was it just a bad run by Iran and Saudi?

This is one of the strongest CAF lineups in recent memory - will one of them make the Semis, finally?

Solid effort from the former Yugoslavia - two qualifiers and Croatia and Bosnia just edged out.

Finally, this is already being described as a WC of Quarter-finalists - is this a good thing though? Will the absence of a few regulars (Czech, Sweden, Croatia) shake things up a bit or are we going to see a lot of cagey low-scoring games and minnow-thrashings?

[Renasko]

When does the draw get done?

[Horza]

When does the draw get done?

4th December, in Cape Town.

If they use the same system as last time (never a safe bet) we're be working with

Pot A - Host and top seeded teams (based on ranking and past WC performance)

South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, England, France, Germany, Italy, Spain

Pot B - remainder of UEFA entrants

Portugal, Netherlands, Switzerland, Greece, Slovenia, Denmark, Slovakia, Serbia

Pot C - Conmebol and CAF

Algeria, Cameroon, Chile, Cote d'Ivoire, Ghana, Nigeria, Paraguay, Uruguay

Pot D - AFC, OFC, Concacaf

Australia, Honduras, Japan, Korea DPR, Korea Republic, Mexico, New Zealand, United States

so have fun picking your fantasy group.

[Celtigo]

4th December, in Cape Town.

If they use the same system as last time (never a safe bet) we're be working with

Pot A - Host and top seeded teams (based on ranking and past WC performance)

South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, England, France, Germany, Italy, Spain

Pot B - remainder of UEFA entrants

Portugal, Netherlands, Switzerland, Greece, Slovenia, Denmark, Slovakia, Serbia

Pot C - Conmebol and CAF

Algeria, Cameroon, Chile, Cote d'Ivoire, Ghana, Nigeria, Paraguay, Uruguay

Pot D - AFC, OFC, Concacaf

Australia, Honduras, Japan, Korea DPR, Korea Republic, Mexico, New Zealand, United States

so have fun picking your fantasy group.

The only way i could see them changing that (and as an American I'd prefer this set up) is to swap the unseeded CONEMBOL teams for the CONCACAF set. Although this would likely lead to groups where "strength" isn't as evenly distributed.

[Renasko]

*mutters to himself, still annoyed at how the qualification campaign went*

[Alcibiades]

The only way i could see them changing that (and as an American I'd prefer this set up) is to swap the unseeded CONEMBOL teams for the CONCACAF set. Although this would likely lead to groups where "strength" isn't as evenly distributed.

I'm hoping for this as well. I don't fancy drawing a CAF team. I'd much rather draw against our pot from last time.

[Horus Ex Machina]

4th December, in Cape Town.

If they use the same system as last time (never a safe bet) we're be working with

Pot A - Host and top seeded teams (based on ranking and past WC performance)

South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, England, France, Germany, Italy, Spain

Pot B - remainder of UEFA entrants

Portugal, Netherlands, Switzerland, Greece, Slovenia, Denmark, Slovakia, Serbia

Pot C - Conmebol and CAF

Algeria, Cameroon, Chile, Cote d'Ivoire, Ghana, Nigeria, Paraguay, Uruguay

Pot D - AFC, OFC, Concacaf

Australia, Honduras, Japan, Korea DPR, Korea Republic, Mexico, New Zealand, United States

so have fun picking your fantasy group.

Hoping that the US doesn't get grouped with a CAF team. Crazy dilemmas and all.

We could potentially have S. Africa in a rather weak group of say Slovenia, Algeria and New Zealand. Yeah, I'm rooting for that.

[Jon AS]

But you only get to put one on the front, or I'll have to talk about Mandanda or Carrasso too !

Well Adler is ahead right now, though somehow I've always thought that Neuer would overtake him at some point. Difficult to judge.

Regarding Henry's handball, it's an absolute disgrace and I agree with Paddy that it doesn't matter how many other players would have done the same. Miroslav Klose once famously told the referee that he had not been fouled after the latter had given a penalty for Werder (the score was still at 0-0) but sadly his sense of fair play seems to have eroded over the years.

I don't recall many instances of a player actively using their hand to score. Oliver Kahn did it once in a Bundesliga game and only got a yellow card (though he got away with a lot more shit than most other players during his career so this might not be the universal standard) but it was his second of the game.

In any case, the injustice of such blatant cheating in a hugely important game cries out for some kind of justice, but I don't think there is much FIFA can do within the rules of the game.

[DJDonegal]

I don't recall many instances of a player actively using their hand to score.

Maradona?

[mormont]

It is the job of the referee to make sure that rules are followed; players are only there to win matches.

Nonsense. Have you actually read the rules of the game? They are explicitly clear on this point. Players are required to adhere to the rules. The referee's duty to enforce the rules doesn't remove the player's duty to stick to them.

I seriously would have lost respect for Henry if he did this. Rules in sports are not moral imperatives, they are aestethical guidelines which exist to give each sport a unique stage where its specific kind of drama can take place.

Rules aren't moral imperatives? What a load of rubbish. They most certainly are. That's why the rules of football explicitly include inherently moral phrases like 'fair play'. It has nothing to do with 'aesthetics' or any of that pseudish waffle in the last sentence.

I have no problems with players acting like the referee's application of the rules of the game take primacy over the rules themselves. In fact I welcome it, since it makes for a more exciting and dynamic experience for the viewer.

You think blatant cheating is more exciting and dynamic, and so is a Good Thing? I think you might just be alone in both those assertions.

One other point: there is no way that handball was 'instinctive'. It was very clearly deliberate and calculated. Henry has admitted as much. And although it would seem there's no way to overturn the result - and I can't imagine Platini or Blatter would want to - there is the option of charging Henry with bringing the game into disrepute. Not that I would hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

[kuroishi]

Just to be clear : I do blame Henry for what he did. It was an absolute disgrace, and I feel very ashamed (and I'm far from being the only one in France today).

But, as I already said before, in a game that important, with a qualification to WC at stake, and even if the prize is an endless shame, I don't know who would have told and I don't even know if I would have told.

Now, for the World Cup. In case of a France early demise (very possible...), I want to see either an african victory (for the first cup in Africa, that would be great), or an european one (to once and for all put an end to the "non-winning outside of Europe" curse). Personal favorites : Côte d'Ivoire, Netherlands. And I think that Spain would make a beautiful winner. Of course it's still early to make pronostics, and that could change when the WC is there depending on the circumstances.

[Jorund]

I feel sorry for you Irish.

This is a disgrace indeed and it'll happen again and again until they set up a new video ref.

I wasnt happy seeing how we qualified yesterday (in fact I havent been happy wathing the French team in a while now) and one can hope that it'll push the video matter a little further. I can't believe it hasnt been done yet when you see how many games are ruined by a bad call : a handball , an undeserved red card or an offside.

The game is fast and you can't ask the refs to see everything but then why arent they helped ?

Probably because, more often than not, it benefits the bigger team, as it did last night.

But when I think about the end of the game last time, even without the shameful goal the French scored, it would most likely have gone to the penalties and I'm glad we've avoided that. The last ones were quite painful.

[mormont]

Just to be clear : I do blame Henry for what he did. It was an absolute disgrace, and I feel very ashamed (and I'm far from being the only one in France today).

But, as I already said before, in a game that important, with a qualification to WC at stake, and even if the prize is an endless shame, I don't know who would have told and I don't even know if I would have told.

That's putting the cart before the horse. The question is not, who would have told? but, who would have done it in the first place? I can't imagine any player honest enough to have owned up would have deliberately cheated like that in the first place. I can easily imagine that many people not honest enough to have owned up, are at the same time not dishonest enough to deliberately cheat like that.

This 'who else would have owned up?' stuff seems to me to be a smokescreen.

[kuroishi]

That's putting the cart before the horse. The question is not, who would have told? but, who would have done it in the first place? I can't imagine any player honest enough to have owned up would have deliberately cheated like that in the first place. I can easily imagine that many people not honest enough to have owned up, are at the same time not dishonest enough to deliberately cheat like that.

This 'who else would have owned up?' stuff seems to me to be a smokescreen.

Oh yeah, for sure. I'm really not trying to defend Henry there, just merely trying to explain why he wouldn't report to the referee, as many people here have criticized him for not telling.

The blame shouldn't fall on him because of the "not-telling" thing but because of the gesture, which was blatant and disgraceful cheating.

And blame he does deserve.

[Jon AS]

Maradona?

He had already been brought up, and more specifically I was trying to think of cases when the cheater was punished and the goal not given.

[kuroishi]

There was

but the goal was given and the cheater not punished either.

On the top of my mind, I can't think of any instance where the cheater was punished...

[Paddy]

Rugby has always been stricter than football with regards rules.

I don't think any player in the history of the game has admitted to cheating involving a goal. Celebrating it was the worst thing he did.

What you say here goes exactly toward my point.

First, why can't Football be as strict as another sport? Ljkeane is correct about rugby not being a perfect example (I seem to remember Munster fans having an issue with Neil Back's hand in the scrum in a Heineken Cup final), but in what I've seen, they've been harsher on cheating than football has. And how are you going to combat cheating without making the penalty for doing it higher.

Second, there are examples of players telling the referee they made the wrong decision when awarding them a penalty. Jon gave one. Another I can think of is Robbie Fowler telling the referee that David Seaman hadn't fouled him after the referee awarded a penalty. I can't remember who was involved, but I remember seeing a clip on a sporting quiz (probably "They think it's all over") of a match deliberately missing a penalty because the referee gave the wrong decision.

Paulo DiCanio, when in position to score in a game against Everton in 2000 instead caught the ball in his hands because he saw that the goalkeeper had gone down injured and needing treatment.

Arsenal even gave a replay to Sheffield United in the 1999 FA Cup because they scored a goal from a throw-in which was conceded in order to allow a player to receive treatment. And that wasn't even anything to do with the rules (Arsenal did nothing against the rules of the game in scoring).

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a case where a player admitted to a foul or offside that led to a goal, but Football's had a very long history and almost anything you can think of has happened in it (check out the guardian website's "The Knowledge" sometime).

The fact that you think that no one has ever done it is exactly what I'm getting at about the reputation of football.

If Robbie Keane had been in Henrys place do you think he would admitted it? No chance.

Cheating and getting away with is part of football. As sad as that is.

I think I already made the point that even were I convinced that Robbie Keane would do the same, that does not make what Henry did all right and it doesn't stop him from being a cheat.

The fact that so many people are saying that cheating and getting away with it is part of Football or that Henry is right to not admit what he did is part of the problem. If people instead came out and said that this is unacceptable, it seems to me that there'd be less of a culture of "it's ok to cheat if you get away with it" and more integrity in the game.

Do you folks not think there should be a better standard than that in football?

Henry has said, "I am not the referee." His defence being that it is not his job to own up to it but I, and as it happens, a little thing called the FIFA Code of Fair Play disagree.

------------------------------------

Some things I've heard this morning are funny. The thing about the conspiracy to get France through. There's simple proof that the referee was not involved in any conspiracy, as he did not award Nicolas Anelka a penalty in extra time when he easily could have done so. Other observers reckoned that Anelka dived into Given, moving his leg towards the keeper in order to trip. Myself, I thought it should have been a penalty even though it would have been harsh (Given was clearly trying not to come into contact with Anelka).

No, there was no hidden conspiracy or any involving the referee, but FIFA were perfectly open and clear that they wanted to give the high profile teams the best chance to qualify by seeding the play off draw.

On the offside in the build up to the French goal, there was definitely a French player in an offside position as the free was taken. I've heard people say it was Henry (in which case it was another bad decision), but I thought it was Squillaci, which I thought muddies the waters a lot, given the active/inactive ruling, however, when describing the incident, Henry stated that he saw Squillaci go up to head the ball with the Irish players but they missed it and the ball came to him. To my mind, that means Squillaci was definitely "active" and therefore should have been given offside.

Henry also stated that the ball hit his hand which, as Mormont has pointed out, was not the case. He moved his hand to the ball, once to keep it in play, and then moved his hand again to push the ball towards his right foot.

While I'm at it, how on earth did Lassana Diarra end that match without a card? He was playing as the defensive midfielder - the Makélélé role - but his only method of defending last night was fouling.

He stopped about 10 of our attacks by fouling players. I think he fouled Keane 4 times alone and fouled Duff a few too.

[Paddy]

This made me laugh very loudly

A Warning to those at work. It's a picture, which contains one bad swear word.

http://twitpic.com/q38l1

[polishgenius]

I can't imagine any player honest enough to have owned up would have deliberately cheated like that in the first place. I can easily imagine that many people not honest enough to have owned up, are at the same time not dishonest enough to deliberately cheat like that.

I don't believe anyone who says they haven't handballed or tried to in the heat of a moment. It's an instinct that footballers train themselves to overcome but sometimes you just do it. More honest players than Henry have made more blatant deliberate handballs (Paul Scholes, for example, though he didn't get away with it).

It's what you do afterwards that counts. I like to think I'd own up but in the pressure that was out there who knows.

[lessthanluke]

Unfortunately Paddy we will NEVER eradicate cheating from sports. It will never happen. You go to your local sunday league game and you will see players diving.

Also what counts as trying to cheat. Claiming a free kick when you know you weren't fouled? Claiming a corner/goal kick/throw in when you know the ball came off you? It happens every minute of every match.