Swiss Referendum on Minarets

[Wouter]

And there are other Muslim holidays, you know.

No! You don't say? :o

I'll have to rethink everything now. :(

You're arguing semantics and arguing them in a particulalry silly way. Why, yes, other cultures and religeons are, in fact, not exactly in every form and practice like secularish western christianity, due to, as it happens, being other cultures and religeons.

Have you considered that Belgian and Swiss cultures aren't in every form and practice like the US, or like Israel, or like Britain, or like Saudi-Arabia, and what is acceptable in some places is not acceptable everywhere? Why should we bent over to accomodate the US, or Israeli, etc. worldview?

All i'm getting from your posts at this point is that you find this deeply shocking and basically unacceptable and want all practice of it in ways you don't approve of to dissapear from your view, which is as good a definition as i've got for "intolerance". (or is it really just Islam? Curious minds want to know.)

There is definitely a degree of intolerance involved in my posts. Tolerance is not an absolute positive value though; you can't spare the sheep and the wolf at the same time, as they say. Combining 100% tolerance of islam with 100% tolerance of gays will be equally impossible. Having said that, There is definitely a degree of intolerance involved in your posts and some of the others there. A particularly good example is the last paragraph of Will's post #386:

But it would be a pretty bloody impressive thread, just rest assured. I'm not saying that Muslims ought to be able to introduce repressive laws, just that the ought to be able to want them. Bigotted Swiss folk should be able to want to ban minarets all they like... they just shouldn't be able to actually succeed.

This post just oozes tolerance, don't you think? "Bigoted Swiss folk" (and remember, it was a majority) shouldn't be able to actually succeed. Looks like he doesn't like democracy, at least not unless the voting the results are approved of by Will.

Regarding what I think of Ramadan: it is fairly shocking to me that it seems so generally followed by local muslims, including those who seems so very westernised on the surface. Not that I think it should be forbidden or something like that - I just would hope that they would voluntarily start to question the wisdom, the ratio, of not drinking during the daylight hours of a long and hot summer day. I would not tell them that I think Ramadan is kinda crazy, because they are my colleagues and it wouldn't be polite and possibly not appreciated by my bosses, but this thread has been a free-fire zone from page 1 so I don't see the need to hold back here. But if they do insist on following it, fine,...

[Datepalm]

Have you considered that Belgian and Swiss cultures aren't in every form and practice like the US, or like Israel, or like Britain, or like Saudi-Arabia, and what is acceptable in some places is not acceptable everywhere? Why should we bent over to accomodate the US, or Israeli, etc. worldview?

Either you're missing the point or you don't care about the distinction, but no one is asking you to "accomodate the Israeli worldview".* The people who's completely personal practice of their religeon you're asking to curtail are swiss/belgian/etc, citizens. Basically, you're ok with the idea that some people can practice their religeon as they like and some can't, on the basis of whether you approve of it or not.

*I've been to Belgium. You couldn't handle it.:P

[Alexia]

Well, Wouter, at least you admit to intolerance. Frankly, I feel sorry for anyone who is so narrow minded when there's so many cool and different customs in life.

Datepalm, isn't there a Jewish holiday that involves a dawn til dusk fast? I used to work with a Jewish woman (very liberal by the way) who fasted for a holiday and if I remember rightly she didn't even drink water.

I'll start getting worked up over Ramadan and other fasting days when someone tries to force me to participate. I had a Muslim friend from Pakistan (who's parents were in an arranged marriage and seemed pretty happy) who would buy the prettiest lehengas for Eid. I remember hanging out with her one day and trying on her lehengas and saris...it was a lot of giggling and fun. :thumbsup:

[Padraig]

What I do see here is that the democratically elected Erdogan of Turkey had a major problem with it, so much so that he wanted to block Rasmussen in his NATO bid.

The question here is whether you can understand why Muslims would be upset about the cartoons? Its clear that some Muslims over-reacted but you surely must agree that they were allowed to react negatively to them?

And yes, making blasphemy illegal is ridiculous also but I don't take that seriously, except for it playing well in certain demographics.

Nobody wants Belgium to lose its way of life/culture. Although, i'm sure you'd have fun defining such culture. But what is a threat to it? For if a minaret is going to destroy Swiss culture, then Swiss culture must be incredibly fragile.

that I think it should be forbidden or something like that - I just would hope that they would voluntarily start to question the wisdom, the ratio, of not drinking during the daylight hours of a long and hot summer day.

Ok. You find different cultures strange. You aren't the first. In this world, we are all going to be mixing with different cultures more and more though. It can be fun too.

And just because a majority is in favour of something, that doesn't mean its a good thing. That should be self-evident. :)

[Bellis]

Thread closing in 3...

[The Stranger]

on safely planning your next ramadan: please be aware that the pillar of ramadan contains so many exceptions-for children the elderly, pregnant women, the infirmed, etc-that the observance was undeniably designed in such a way that it is not encouraged or expected of any devout muslim who isn't physically capable of observing the fast.

[Datepalm]

Datepalm, isn't there a Jewish holiday that involves a dawn til dusk fast? I used to work with a Jewish woman (very liberal by the way) who fasted for a holiday and if I remember rightly she didn't even drink water.

Nothing so...humane.:P Theres a couple of dusk to dusk fasts which usually comes out to about 26 hours or so. The most widely practiced one is Yom Kippur, which is one of the most important holidays. (It means "day of atonement" and is basically to apologize for everything you did wrong that year. And in Israel, to ride bicycles everywhere becuase theres a massive taboo against driving. Though it's not actually illegal). Theres also the fast of Gdalia and 9th of Av, commemorating the destruction of the temple. (twice!)

I like Ramadan, BTW. The city feels very festive, theres a bit less traffic, and some kind of economically mysterious citywide process leads to an abundance of baklawa even towards people who aren't celebrating.

[Wouter]

It's not accepted because it's obvious. Every time there's a news story about a specific nasty incident in Saudi Arabia we get a thread on it here. They are often shorter threads because everyone generally agrees that the situation is horrible. Long threads generally only come when there's significant debate.

Again, you misunderstand what the posts are attacking. No one is attacking people's right to have an opinion, we're attacking people's right to have that opinion recogised in law. Believe me, if the Muslim population of Switzerland manage to have a law created that said Swiss woman had to wear a burqa you would see such an almighty thread of righteous indignation on this board as has not been seen in... well knowing this board in at least a week or so. But it would be a pretty bloody impressive thread, just rest assured.

I combined 2 of your quotes here, because of the effect. The implication is that a number of people on this board would defend a law that would force Swiss women to wear a burqa. I'm sure that is not what you intended to say, but it ends up being pretty funny.

As far as oil goes, the Independent People's Republic of Will has no economic dealings with Saudi Arabia and currently maintains no ambassador to that nation. If we did have an ambassador we would long ago have recalled them in protest. Bizarrely I am not a nation state and nor, as far as I know, is anyone else on this board. I have little control over countries' or companies' dealings with the Saudis and for my own part find the religious intolerance there to be despicable. I will argue the same in any thread that comes up, but I'm not about to start a thread to declare the fact since I believe it would be redundant.

Yet the point you are making here is redundant to one the stranger made earlier. I already acknowledged I jumped around inappropriately from forum-level to geopolitics. My bad.

And under what system is, "So long as you have the bare necessities for survival we can deny you anything else", considered a reasonable argument?

That's using quite copious amounts of hyperbole. And then you aren't happy that I claim that you say minarets are vital to Islamic worship. Now it's even evertything short of bare necessities.

I believe that a single religion has been single out to have a "shot fired across its bow" and that is discriminatory. The shot isn't even being fired at "political Islam" since minarets aren't inherently political structures it's a shot being fired at the entire religion. The Swiss are essentially saying, "You can't have point bits on top of your buildings because you're Muslim". If you don't see the problem with that then I doubt this debate is going anywhere. The thing being banned is harmless, and has significance to a particular minority group. There is no correlation to speed limits--which exist for safety reasons. Minarets do not cause Sharia law to break out and they do not enhance the voting power of Muslim people. What specific harm were they causing that required that they be banned?

Not every pointy bit on top of a building is a minaret; not every building is a mosque. I will acknowledge though, that it is discriminatory. But then, islam is meant to be singled out, rather than buddism or so, because the Swiss people have misgivings about islam and not about buddhism - islam pissed them off, buddhism didn't. Islam is to some extent seen as a threat, buddhism isn't. The US has chosen to invade Afghanistan, but not Syria or North Korea or Sudan or France or Belgium. This is clearly discriminatory. Luckily, if the US started to attack indiscriminately and randomly we would have a problem.

Why are minarets a potential problem? Luckily for me, or actually not really (but it is handy ammunition for me anyway - what a coincidence this news breaks today), there is this news: a mosque in the Belgian place Beringen, a ex-mining village with a lot of (mostly Turkish) muslims, has asked and gotten permission to use loudspeakers to call for prayers. Non-muslims living near can freely enjoy the calls for prayer, of course, though the mosque and the (nominally Christian... obviously with a lot of muslim votes, though) mayor insist that people will not be inconvenienced by this. How that is supposed to work I don't know, will they use a special frequency that only muslims can hear? :dunno:

Then again, the non-muslims may have mostly left the centre of the place already with few (electorally negligible) persons remaining. Why they did not just opt for an SMS service to notify worshippers I don't know; the Israeli army or Hamas could give them plenty of pointers how to do that, but they want it said aloud apparently.

I assume that few to none here will see issue with that, as it likely embodies their dream of what they consider a perfect "multicultural" society. So, I have decided to bring some cheerleaders for my case (wat we zelf doen doen we beter, as we say in Flanders), from Turkey of all places: Titled: "when muhammed lived there were no loudspeakers"it contains witness accounts of a number of secular Turks, who complain about the excessive use of very powerful loudspeakers to call for prayer, often by a muezzin who can't even sing properly, and that for the first at 5:30 in the morning and 5 times a day. As Pervin Guzel puts it, "it seems almost like they want to scream in our ears that we, too, need to be devout muslims". Ah, freedom of religion is so important? Freedom from religion, on the other hand... :ack:

But, what does this have to do with minarets? Well, the vast majority of Belgian mosques don't have minarets - the local muslims not insisting on "anything more than the barest necessities to live", maybe for some stupid reason like not provoking their non-muslim neighbours. Living 100m from one such, I appreciate their gesture of understanding :thumbsup:

Do I still need to tell you that the one in Beringen is one the very few with minarets? No political power you say? No, the stone doesn't have power. But it is the manifestation of power, sure as the cathedrals were manifestations of the now mostly old glory and power of christianity. It does make clear who's the boss.

[Wouter]

Thread closing in 3...

If Mormont or Terra would do so, that would be basically be an admission they couldn't debate it out. If anyone else does it, it's still a shame that this cannot be debated and indirectly that religion in general and islam in particular is so powerful that even this board becomes self-censoring.

[Bellis]

Sorry, folks, I know we're all having fun, but we've gone over on length - we're over 400 posts. Save it for next week's Islam vs the world conversation.