Jon is not a Targaryen

[A wilding]

[Catelyn] believed Lysa, who she hadn't seen for years and whom she knew had given her maiden head to Littlefinger.

Did Catelyn know this??

[Artanaro]

Artanaro; I'm pleased to see your criticism was rebutted, so stop being an ass, lol because your making false assumptions (statement based on the expression, I actually think its great to have people to debate and refine my perspective with).

People always think someone's arguements were rebutted when someone else offers an opinion they agree with. But that opinion may still be very wrong, especially when you believed something wrong to start the discussion .

The assumption i fell you are making is that Catelyn was trust worthy before Ned went south. Cat shows the same personality deficiencies then as she does when rationalizing her release of Jaime.

This statement is not true. Catelyn was very trustworthy. Even if you don't think so, Eddard certainly thought that was the case. He trusts her about Littlefinger. He trusts Lysa's accusation about the Lannisters, because she is Catelyn's sister and she trusted her. He supports her when she kidnaps Tyrion. The fact you're rationalizing Eddard's distrust of her with events that happened later makes little sense. Ned had reasons to tell her about who Jon's mother was if his bastard was actually his nephew. But if Jon is still his son, there's no motive to telling Catelyn since it wouldn't change anything and perhaps make things worse.

She bellieved Lysa, who she hadn't seen for years and whom she knew had given her maiden head to Little Finger who she also knew loved Cat.

If I didn't see a brother for years, but I had trusted him my entire life previously. There would be no reason to stop doing so. This logic doesn't work.

She's self absorbed and she'd never have released Jaime if Eddard Stark held him captive at Riverrun (as evidenced by Bran-Cat's favorite child intending to go to Kings Landing), her actions were unacceptable, she marginalized her King and make no mistake, once a man puts on a crown he is a King before he is a son

Her actions point Catelyn to being anything but being self-absorbed. From her guidance of Robb and Eddard to caring and thinking about others. Wanting to keep one of your children close isn't self-absorbed. Most mothers are like that. It's simply seeking out your personal interests and loving your children is a personal interest. Anyone that says they don't consider their own interests is a liar. I agree that freeing Jaime may not have been the best decision, but from the circumstances Catelyn was faced with, I understand why she made it.

Artanaro

[roeh61]

Er, no. Blackfyre is not a traditional Targaryen name for bastards at all, as many people seem to think. It is the family name adopted by Daemon, a bastard son of Aegon the Unworthy, and one of his aunts(or cousin, something like that anyway), taken after Aegon legitimized him and all of his other bastards on his deathbed.

See for example Brynden Rivers, known as Lord Bloodraven, or Aegor Rivers, known as Bittersteel.

This is not to say that Jon couldn't call himself Blackfyre, but I can't imagine why he would.

Don't forget that Tagareyn's could take more than 1 wife.

[Lord Qwerty]

I'm gonna laugh my ass off if it turns out all the Wylla stories really are true annd we're all just letting our imaginations take control.

[Red Rex]

Did Catelyn know this??

Um, seeing as Cat laughed and didnt let LF stick his tounge in her mouth and Lysa did, added to the fact that Lysa got knocked up by someone and Lysa brought LF to court... Youd have to knock down Cat's intelligence a few notches should she have failed to put the pieces together, but then again I dispise Cat already and am as manipulative a human being as has ever been born so...

Er, no. Blackfyre is not a traditional Targaryen name for bastards at all, as many people seem to think. It is the family name adopted by Daemon, a bastard son of Aegon the Unworthy, and one of his aunts(or cousin, something like that anyway), taken after Aegon legitimized him and all of his other bastards on his deathbed.

See for example Brynden Rivers, known as Lord Bloodraven, or Aegor Rivers, known as Bittersteel.

This is not to say that Jon couldn't call himself Blackfyre, but I can't imagine why he would.

sister, Aegon IV snuck into the maiden vault and banged his sister who was the wife of Aegon IV elder brother Baelor the Blessed (the lunny tune)

[A wilding]

Um, seeing as Cat laughed and didnt let LF stick his tounge in her mouth and Lysa did, added to the fact that Lysa got knocked up by someone and Lysa brought LF to court... Youd have to knock down Cat's intelligence a few notches should she have failed to put the pieces together

But Cat did not know that Lysa had been knocked up. She worked this out only in ASoS, as a result of listening to Lord Hoster's dying ramblings.

It was Jon Arryn who brought LF to court "in order to please Lysa". Which might make Lysa and LF lovers, but might not.

[jon tarkaryen]

I'm gonna laugh my ass off if it turns out all the Wylla stories really are true annd we're all just letting our imaginations take control.

but on the other hand,it is not in grrm's style to tell us such easy truth so early.I would make Jon not really important or interesting charachter for plot.

[Lord Qwerty]

but on the other hand,it is not in grrm's style to tell us such easy truth so early.I would make Jon not really important or interesting charachter for plot.

Well, he's a great character even without all the speculation. I admit people wouldn't be as fascinated if we already knew who his parents are, though.

[一方通行]

lListen carefully now

Cat is almost certainly the least trustworthy person to tell about Jon being Targ.

She hates Jon as evidenced by the "it should have been you" comment. Her main problem with Jon is his threat to the claim of her own children as heirs to winterfell witch we know because, she said that she doesn’t care about Ned siring basterds herself in GoT.

Revealing the fact that Jon is a Targ eliminates Jon's claim to winterfell while putting him in grave mortal danger. Both things she would probably relish.

P.S.: to those who say that she loves Ned enough to not put him(Ned) in danger. She hasn’t shown much foresight at all about her actions regarding her children beyond the immediate. (Jamie)

[Doom of Valyria]

My apologies if this has already been said (and it probably has in 190-something posts, which I'm not about to look through) but look at somebody like Baelor Breakspear, nothing like a Targaryen, brown hair, very even-tempered. I'm not saying Jon absolutely is Rhaegar's son, but you shouldn't exclude it either.

[Red Rex]

But Cat did not know that Lysa had been knocked up. She worked this out only in ASoS, as a result of listening to Lord Hoster's dying ramblings.

It was Jon Arryn who brought LF to court "in order to please Lysa". Which might make Lysa and LF lovers, but might not.

WHAT! did u miss that memo? Lysa bleats on about how LF took her V-card in sansa chapters.

- and the point is that Cat should have pieced the pieces together earlier... shes just to self absorbed to be an effective player, much like Cersi

lListen carefully now

Cat is almost certainly the least trustworthy person to tell about Jon being Targ.

She hates Jon as evidenced by the "it should have been you" comment. Her main problem with Jon is his threat to the claim of her own children as heirs to winterfell witch we know because, she said that she doesn’t care about Ned siring basterds herself in GoT.

Revealing the fact that Jon is a Targ eliminates Jon's claim to winterfell while putting him in grave mortal danger. Both things she would probably relish.

P.S.: to those who say that she loves Ned enough to not put him(Ned) in danger. She hasn’t shown much foresight at all about her actions regarding her children beyond the immediate. (Jamie)

- True, but Robb lost his crown when he let Cat over ride his wish that she be escorted to Winterfell, if need be Robb should have sent her in chains --> Edmure knowing his place and allowing Robb to tear Tywin to shreds

[A wilding]

But Cat did not know that Lysa had been knocked up. She worked this out only in ASoS, as a result of listening to Lord Hoster's dying ramblings.

It was Jon Arryn who brought LF to court "in order to please Lysa". Which might make Lysa and LF lovers, but might not.

WHAT! did u miss that memo? Lysa bleats on about how LF took her V-card in sansa chapters.

- and the point is that Cat should have pieced the pieces together earlier... she's just to self absorbed to be an effective player, much like Cersei

I meant, of course, that the fact that Jon had given LF a post was not conclusive evidence that LF was sleeping with Jon's wife. I am aware that we the readers know that LF and Lysa slept together, as does Sansa now.

I stand by my basic point. That Catelyn might possibly have speculated that LF and Lysa has had an affair at some point, since she did know that Lysa had been a little gone on him when they were children, but she had nothing to make it any more than a speculation, and that even if she did consider it a possibility, it gave her no reason to think it likely that Lysa had murdered her husband and her secret message that he had been murdered by the Lannisters was a lie to entrap the Starks. (After all, until ASoS the majority opinion on this board was that it was the Lannisters who murdered him.)

[Red Rex]

Iit gave her no reason to think it likely that Lysa had murdered her husband and her secret message that he had been murdered by the Lannisters was a lie to entrap the Starks. (After all, until ASoS the majority opinion on this board was that it was the Lannisters who murdered him.)

- It gave Cat every reason to distrust Lysa, she was just too deaf to listen to the warnings. Lysa loved LF and LF loved Cat, Cat knew that Lysa would never be happy with a man older than Hoster Tully, and LF had been at court the entirity of Lysa's time there (minus half a year). The Tully words are : "family, duty, honor" Lysa's words were, "I'm fat, I'm bitter, I should have been Hoster's only daughter"

[DanteGabriel]

I doesn't matter how much Ned trusted Catelyn when the issue of whether or not to tell her about Jon's true parentage (assuming R+L=J) came up. If Lyanna made Ned promise to tell no one, then Ned would have told no one.

[Grant Dempsey]

- It gave Cat every reason to distrust Lysa,

Catelyn did distrust Lysa. Just not in relation to Littlefinger or to the point of suspecting Lysa of actually being responsible for Jon Arryn's death and the downfall of Catelyn's family.