Future of the Middle East Peace Process

[Ser Reptitious]

Samalander,

And Reptitious, since you asked nicely, this is for you:

Thanks!

I'm not sure it actually will "continue apace" as you put it. Even now, the Israeli government is applying the brakes and screeching is loud.

Not really. No brakes are being applied to the settlements around Jerusalem, and Netanyahu has only committed to a temporary building freeze in other settlements around the West Bank. Not to mention settlement roads are still being built connection the settlements to Israel proper.

It doesn't work like that. Courts were petitioned, rulings were passed, then the police was sent to enfore the court's decision.

Glad to hear that. But the process still needs to be applied to both sides equally before it can be called justice.

Attempting suicide used to be illegal in Israel. And while death by Palestinians seems no different than any other suicide method, it does have national consequences (the state has to retaliate, track down the killers, etc.). Also, the same way a country has a responsibilty for not letting people accidently cross the road at the wrong place, it likewise should try and prevent it's citizens from going into dangerous places.

Datepalm and I discussed this already, so I don't want to rehash it all. Basically, if the prohibition only applies to entry without permit and obtaining a permit is easy to do, I can live with that. I'm just not convinced of that being currently the case.

Yes, please use the term radical settler. As long as you remeber those guys represent less than 1% of the population.

True, they only (thankfully!) represent a small part of Israel's population, but they tend to have political influence in government to an extent that belies their small numbers.

On the flip side, the people firing rockets into Israel or participating in suicide bombings also only make up a tiny portion of the Palestinian population.

Exactly. But what is a satisfactory settlement in our enemies eyes? Who is to say? Will you?

Well, obviously the people negotiating on behalf of each side will need to have enough credibility among their own communities that they will be able to "sell" whatever compromise agreement is ultimately reached. That will likely mean that both sides will probably have to sit down and negotiate with people from the other side that they consider less than kosher, if you will. For Israel, that will likely mean negotiating with Marwan Barghouti (who may be able to persuade Hamas to accept whatever final deal is hammered out), while the Palestinians will have to hold their noses and negotiate with the likes of Tzipni Livni and Ehud Barak (I doubt Netanyahu will ever be a serious negotiating partner).

As for what sort of final deal the Palestinians want, it's likely to be along the following lines: A Palestinian state consisting of the West Bank and Gaza (pre-1967 Green line border), with East Jerusalem as the capital. As for the right of return, they may accept that only a symbolic number of refugees may go back (probably those still alive that actually lived in these properties before), with some sort of financial compensation for the rest.

The Palestinians use the settlements as a pretext for their violence in the eyes of the world. One would think no more sttlements=no more violence, but Gaza showed that to be a falsehood. We got rid of the Gaza settlements, but still the rockets came. Ergo - the settlements are not the reason for the violence.

They are a reason (and probably the major one), but not the only one. Israel has been blockading Gaza since Hamas assumed power, effectively turning the place into a huge open-air prison. My understanding is that Hamas kept firing the rockets in order to try and force an end to the blockade. (i.e. they would stop firing rockets if the blockade was lifted.) Please note, btw, I'm not in any way defending what they did. I'm simply saying that was likely their line of reasoning (which obviously didn't work out all that well).

Also, just because Hamas and other jihadist groups kept firing rockets does not mean that the average Gazan necessarily approved of that, but Hamas hasn't exactly shown itself to be overly tolerant of dissent, so anyone disagreeing likely decided it would be better to keep their mouths shut and their heads down.

I'm not saying we should have kept them, just showing you that getting rid of them might not solve anything in the eyes of the Palestinians.

Thanks for clarifying that.

[Samalander]

1) True, they only (thankfully!) represent a small part of Israel's population, but they tend to have political influence in government to an extent that belies their small numbers.

2) On the flip side, the people firing rockets into Israel or participating in suicide bombings also only make up a tiny portion of the Palestinian population.

3) Also, just because Hamas and other jihadist groups kept firing rockets does not mean that the average Gazan necessarily approved of that, but Hamas hasn't exactly shown itself to be overly tolerant of dissent, so anyone disagreeing likely decided it would be better to keep their mouths shut and their heads down.

1) Yes and No. Certainly settlers as a group have a lot of political influence. Their radical element...not so much. Even our much maligned Prime Minister did not invite into his coalition the most right-wing party in the Knesset which represents the hardest of hardliners.

2) No. Those guys are pretty much the Hamas equivalent of an army. This board has a lot to say about what the Israeli army does, but these things you mentioned- that's the actions of the Hamas army (duly elected representative of the Gazan people, BTW).

3) Again, duly elected. Gaza voted Hamas into parliamentary power in an overwhelming majority. That's what they want(ed- once in power, no more elcetions...).

P.S

To continue my "Israel is great" rant- You do know that the only delegation in Haiti that has an active field hospital and operates with any efficiency (while the great empire USA is still busy deploying it's own troops) is the IDF one. Yeah, the criminal murderers saving lives while the rest of the world twidles their thumbs.

[Shryke]

To be honest, even if the settlements were the sole reason for violence (I agree with you that they are not, although they are certainly a part of it) it does not follow that removing the Gaza settlements would remove attacks: The West Bank settlements are still there after all, and assuming that events in the West Bank would have no influence whatsoever in Gaza seems wishfull thinking at best.

Once you've dismantled *all* settlements you might make the claim that settlements is not the cause of violence, but until then? You don't really have a case.

Personally, I'd be assuming that the Palestinians have memories longer then a goldfish and thus just removing the settlements and saying "Our Bad!" isn't gonna make them love you by the next day.

[Ser Reptitious]

Samalander,

Yes and No. Certainly settlers as a group have a lot of political influence. Their radical element...not so much. Even our much maligned Prime Minister did not invite into his coalition the most right-wing party in the Knesset which represents the hardest of hardliners.

You're gonna have to help me out here: which settler policies do you consider 'hardline' and which ones 'mainstream'? (I'm not being facetious, btw. I need to know your view of these terms in order to be able to reply properly.)

No. Those guys are pretty much the Hamas equivalent of an army. This board has a lot to say about what the Israeli army does, but these things you mentioned- that's the actions of the Hamas army (duly elected representative of the Gazan people, BTW).

They may be the Hamas equivalent of an army, but what percentage of the Palestinian population do they represent?

Again, duly elected. Gaza voted Hamas into parliamentary power in an overwhelming majority. That's what they want(ed- once in power, no more elcetions...).

I seem to recall discussing this very issue with you in previous Israel-Palestine threads. Yes, Hamas won an election. The thing is, Palestinians essentially had a choice between an extremely corrupt Fatah that failed to provide the people with basic needs, and Hamas, which for all its obvious failings (to Israel and the West) at least is known to be fairly clean from corruption and provides extensive social services to people. Bread and butter issues tend to be the most important to voters the world over, so I can hardly fault the Palestinians for voting the way they did in 2006. They chose what they considered to be the lesser of two evils. Hopefully Fatah learned from the experience and is cleaning up its act. That would make things easier for everyone involved (well, except Hamas of course).

P.S

To continue my "Israel is great" rant- You do know that the only delegation in Haiti that has an active field hospital and operates with any efficiency (while the great empire USA is still busy deploying it's own troops) is the IDF one. Yeah, the criminal murderers saving lives while the rest of the world twidles their thumbs.

You know, just because people have issues with the way Israel deals with the Palestinians doesn't necessarily mean that they consider Israel 'evil' in general. I'm sure there are some people out there who think like that, but they are a small minority, including on this board.

[Lord Slum]

The Israeli government along with many other governments are evil. Yes they look out for their own self interest but harm others in the process. A quick 30 minutes of research and you can pinpoint which governments are pretty much malicious, domestically and internationally. Just like how I bet the vast majority of Americans disapproved of the Trial of Tears, I pretty much can wedge in that most Israeli's probably don't want to slaughter Palestinians and vice-versa. There isn't even a real pretext for the IDF doing what it does against Palestinians.

Asking the IDF on why they kill Palestinians will probably give you a bullshit answer like they are destabilizing society!

Asking the Saudi Arabian government on why they punish women (among many other things) who get raped will give you the same stupid ass answer.

[TerraPrime]

Re:

Israel must give up some of it's land to allow Palestinians to live decently. Since no one else will provide, the US needs to engage in nation building, it'll be slow, it'll take time. I have no doubt in my mind extremists from both sides will still be sending bombs over the fence and killing each other. But it's worth it. In a way, I want it to be like the way the US built Japan and South Korea.

But you also said:

Shit I would never ever forgive people who were responsible for destroying my life and robbing everything I held dear, I doubt anyone would.

So, if you're right that the Palestinians are not going to forgive, then what matters what Israel do?

I think that you're singing the same song as Samalander does, only a different set of lyrics. To him, the Palestians want to wipe Israel off the map and destroy all Jews. To you, the Jews are the same as Nazis. So, if we start with those premises, why even bother to talk about reconciliation or, heaven forbids, peace? Negotiation is only valid if, imo, you believe that the other side is rational and can be negotiated with.

[Lord Slum]

When did I say Jews are on the same side as Nazis? It's laughable you equate the followers of Judaism with the followers of Zionism, despite the overlap. It's akin to linking the Al'Qeada with Muslims or KKK with us Americans. Don't put words in my mouth, it's insulting.

Reconciliation is hard when your life has been destroyed. That's why the peace process will take generations; time kills everything, including hatred.

[Lord of Oop North]

While this is not necessarily on-topic, I just wanted to point out ...

To continue my "Israel is great" rant- You do know that the only delegation in Haiti that has an active field hospital and operates with any efficiency (while the great empire USA is still busy deploying it's own troops) is the IDF one. Yeah, the criminal murderers saving lives while the rest of the world twidles their thumbs.

Christ, get off your high horse because that is not true. The Canadian contingent from Toronto setup two field hospitals last week, each treating 1000 - 2000 people a day. Their team only consists of one doctor, and five paramedics (one of whom is my Uncle), but they have been organizing other delegations and local units for the past few days. My uncle mentioned that he helped perform hundreds of amputations without any anesthetic at all. That same team has also setup enough water purifiers to provide something like 50,000 litres a day.

So don't be telling us who and who isn't doing shit, because you apparently have no idea at all.

[Samalander]

1) You're gonna have to help me out here: which settler policies do you consider 'hardline' and which ones 'mainstream'? (I'm not being facetious, btw. I need to know your view of these terms in order to be able to reply properly.)

2) They may be the Hamas equivalent of an army, but what percentage of the Palestinian population do they represent?

3) I'm sure there are some people out there who think like that, but they are a small minority, including on this board.

1)Mainly those who would target their own people just so they wouldn't have give an inch are considered hardline. Mainstream will go with the choice of the people (as the government decides).

2) Represent is a good word. Don't they really represent even people who back and support them as well?

3) And yet...they manage to be quite vocal!

[the silent speaker]

I repeatedly challenged the silent speaker to provide at least a shred of evidence for the various (rather ludicrous, IMO) claims that he (she?) has made in this thread. So far the silence has been deafening!

I'm not quite prepared to concede "repeatedly", but I did see one post of yours that deserved more response than it got. Unfortunately, I've been busy (I'm getting married in less than a month now!) and there was a weekend, and before I could create a long response the thread had moved on, so I let it drop. For now I'll just say that there was some assumption disjunction; I would have probably needed to reboot and reword a good bit of what I had been saying, and I just don't have the time right now.

[Shryke]

Salamander,

Are you SERIOUSLY trying to have a dick-waving competition over who is sending the most aid to Haiti?

[Stubby]

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This topic has been closed by a moderator.

Reason: Thread closed as it seems it can't go more than a day without personal insults