Future of the Middle East Peace Process

[Usotsuki]

Ser repetitious,

That those who can be reasonably alleged to have committed war crimes should face trial and if found guilty punishment. And if the state of Israel was in fact indistinguishable in action from Hamas (which by the way is not true) of course it should face the same penalties.

[Ser Reptitious]

Hakujingomi,

Ser repetitious,

That those who can be reasonably alleged to have committed war crimes should face trial and if found guilty punishment. And if the state of Israel was in fact indistinguishable in action from Hamas (which by the way is not true) of course it should face the same penalties.

Actually, I agree with the war crimes trials suggestion, but of course it's never entire entities (whether Hezbollah, Hamas, or Israel) that would face such charges, but individuals that were responsible for either ordering or actually perpetrating such crimes.

I know that Israel considers the Goldstone Report fatally flawed (due to who commissioned it), but I highly doubt that it would ever let someone untainted (such as the ICC) investigate either. (Of course neither would Hezbollah or Hamas, but as non-state entities I don't think that they could make such a request anyways, but nor could they prevent such an investigation of their actions by the ICC if Israel did make a request for ICC investigation of the 2006 and/or 2008 wars.)

[Werthead]

Reading up on the peace process (well, on Wikipedia, anyway), I was surprised to read the assertion that there is growing support amongst Palestinians and Israelis for what I thought was the long-discarded 'three-state solution', namely the return of the West Bank to Jordan and the Gaza Strip to Egypt. I thought this had long been discredited as Egypt and Jordan had no wish to plunge into the morass of Palestinian politics again, but apparently it is under discussion (even if tentative and extremely speculative).

Is this really a feasible plan or just people blowing smoke?

[Max the Mostly Mediocre]

Well, if the shoe fits wear it.

I take issue with the assertion that there's no difference between cluster munitions and, say, HE shells* and you conclude that I hate Israel (or were you implying that I hate Jews, Mr. Not-Willing-To-Say-What-I-Mean-Even-When-Asked-To)?

Israel is a democratic state under the rule of law. Its actions are, and should be, held to greater scrutiny and account.

RWHamel doesn't seem to think so, which can only mean that he thinks Israel has the same legitimacy as a bunch of terrorists which in turn implies that he's a raging anti-Semite.

Hey, this stuff is fun. I can see its appeal.

[Ser Reptitious]

Werthead,

Reading up on the peace process (well, on Wikipedia, anyway), I was surprised to read the assertion that there is growing support amongst Palestinians and Israelis for what I thought was the long-discarded 'three-state solution', namely the return of the West Bank to Jordan and the Gaza Strip to Egypt. I thought this had long been discredited as Egypt and Jordan had no wish to plunge into the morass of Palestinian politics again, but apparently it is under discussion (even if tentative and extremely speculative).

Is this really a feasible plan or just people blowing smoke?

Personally, I can't see how that could ever work in reality. For starters, Hamas is an off-shoot of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, which Mubarak suppresses. So Egypt assuming control over Gaza would be frought with potential trouble right from the get-go.

As for the West Bank, (1) I'm not sure what sort of credible claim Jordan has over it in the first place, (2) Palestinians would become the overwhelming majority within Jordan at that point, which the natives likely don't want, and (3) I think the Palestinians' desire for a state of their own is simply too strong at this point. Swapping Israeli overlordship for a Jordanian one might be preferable if those are the only choices, but I don't think that in the long run Palestinians want either one. Nor do I think that there is a credible reason as to why they should.

[Usotsuki]

Ser Repetitious, that's a reasonable argument but it's dealing with the political reality; I, as a good liberal, operate entirely within the implausible normatives.

[Lummel]

Discussing the lack of credible claims in the context of the Middle East when the existance of Israel proves that even the most incredible claims can become a reality if enough people believe in them seems a little strange.

The big practical advantage I can see is that it would give the West Bank and the Gaza Strip access to non-israeli controled borders and allow more economic development, but that's it.

[Ser Reptitious]

Ser Repetitious, that's a reasonable argument but it's dealing with the political reality; I, as a good liberal, operate entirely within the implausible normatives.

Is that your round-about way of saying that we seem to agree on this point? :P

[Werthead]

As for the West Bank, (1) I'm not sure what sort of credible claim Jordan has over it in the first place, (2) Palestinians would become the overwhelming majority within Jordan at that point, which the natives likely don't want, and (3) I think the Palestinians' desire for a state of their own is simply too strong at this point. Swapping Israeli overlordship for a Jordanian one might be preferable if those are the only choices, but I don't think that in the long run Palestinians want either one. Nor do I think that there is a credible reason as to why they should.

I was going to say that Gaza would be frought with perils. But what about the long-term view that the Palestinians might accept a return to Jordanian rule as a temporary measure and stepping stone towards declaring the West Bank a soveriegn Palestinian state (from Jordan rather than from Israel) further down the line? I wonder if that could work as a stepping stone measure, forming a buffer between Israeli rule over the territory and full independence.

Of course, that still leaves the problem of Israeli settlements to contend with, not to mention the matter of the border in Jerusalem.

[The Stranger]

How about that Hezbollah fired into Israel Chinese-made artillery rockets called Type-81s. The Type-81 is a 122-mm cluster munition rocket that contains 39 submunitions. Or this isn't worth mentioning because it doesn't bash Israel.

actually i didn't know that, and it is deplorable. when i looked it up on human rights watch, however, the linky mentions that locals around a particular area in northern document at least one, possibly more, out of a 12-rocket attack carrying such munitions.

...aaand Israel left a million in Lebanon. so at some point i think that, not only do we invoke the equivalence fallacy, but someone gets their lapels grabbed while the grabber screams a million fucking cluster bombs laying around in an area half the size of Connecticut!

[the silent speaker]

Can you find me any quotes from moderates such as Abbas insisting upon the latter?

I haven't heard anything the contrary, either. And considering that it would risk a needless PR blow (at least if he were to say it in English) and he has plenty of non-moderates on the PA payroll (including all of Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade) who can say things without said risks, I know which silence I trust more. They don't need to say it to do it, and Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Iraq et cetera have all already done it. It's well within the bounds of plausibility.

Alot?

More than there ought to be, but not remotely so much that another Rwanda can be dismissed with a handwavey "they had it coming", Shryke.

And I don't think the homicidal Palestinians* would make any distinction between "good" Jews and "bad" Jews. There was a guy, I believe his name was Amos Boz, of Haifa, as left-wing as they come, in a restaurant owned by a good friend of his, who was Arab, when a gunman burst into the room to kill Mr. Boz for the crime of being Jewish. The owner attempted to protect his friend until the gunman made him back off or he would be killed too for the crime of befriending a Jew. The owner retreated, for which I don't blame him in the slightest, and Mr. Boz was killed. Here's a man who never oppressed anybody in his life, in fact IIRC he had been active in many pro-Palestinian causes, minding his own business in a restaurant whose owner was a close personal friend, and he was killed for being a Jewish son of a pig**. The West Bank has 500,000 sons of pigs and dogs most of whom have done no one any more harm than Mr. Boz, and I see no reason to have any faith that the people who killed him would scruple at killing them.

* PLEASE NOTE: This is not intended to be rhetorical redundancy; in fact, it is the exact opposite of rhetorical redundancy. There are of course any number of Palestinians who are not homicidal. They are not the ones of whom I speak. I speak wholly of the other subset.

**This is an actual epithet for Jews that they teach in the Palestinian schools.

[Shryke]

Who said they "had it coming"? But it's not like these Settlers just randomly showed up and have absolutely no history with Palestinians or anything.

I'm just saying expecting these settlers to be treated well by the local Palestinians is a pipe-dream unless you get a really strong government dedicated to protecting them.

[the silent speaker]

Who said they "had it coming"?

You did.

Well yeah. What else would you expect? It's not like the Settlers have been all nice adn kind to their neighbors or anything.

In response to my comment about large-scale attacks on the local Jews if there were an agreement made to have them stay as Palestinian citizens.

[Padraig]

The West Bank has 500,000 sons of pigs and dogs most of whom have done no one any more harm than Mr. Boz, and I see no reason to have any faith that the people who killed him would scruple at killing them.

Horrible account.

And yes, i'm sure you are right about the reaction of those kind of murderers to the settlers. OTOH, the settlements are (to put it politely) legally dubious in the first place. In their present format, they are the symbol of all that the Palestinians would hate in Israeli colonialism. They are going to cause a very visceral reaction. (To say "they had it coming" is a very emotive reaction to somebody discussing the reasons for such an action).

If Palestinians had their own state, then the rules have changed significantly. The settlements would probably still struggle to survive but if it was part of the deal, then i'm sure they could survive if Israel so wished. Is the "Right to Stay" such a big issue though? Ironic after the whole "Right to Return" issue.

[Ser Reptitious]

the silent speaker,

I haven't heard anything the contrary, either.

This is the best that you can do to back up your assertion? That's pretty weak man! You can't just go around accusing people of having an anti-semitic agenda and when challenged to provide some back-up simply say "well, they haven't come out and explicitly said they don't have an anti-semitic agenda, or if they have, I personally haven't heard of it."

And considering that it would risk a needless PR blow (at least if he were to say it in English) and he has plenty of non-moderates on the PA payroll (including all of Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade) who can say things without said risks, I know which silence I trust more.

Um, what? Again, all your "evidence" seems to be nothing more than sheer speculation based on your own 'gut feelings'.

They don't need to say it to do it, and Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Iraq et cetera have all already done it. It's well within the bounds of plausibility.

Jews were either expelled from those countries or they decided to leave (because of violence and physical intimidation) because of the hostility those nations had towards Israel. If the Palestinians reach a peace agreement with Israel whereby they finally get their own state, I fail to see why they would feel the need to be hostile towards Israel at that point. In fact, Israel would likely be one of their biggest trading partners, so good relations would be very important for the sake of economic development if nothing else.

PLEASE NOTE: This is not intended to be rhetorical redundancy; in fact, it is the exact opposite of rhetorical redundancy. There are of course any number of Palestinians who are not homicidal.

Ok, I'm getting seriously curious what your background is. The very fact that you feel the need to explain to us that you don't consider "homicidal Palestinians" a rhethorical redundancy (if that were expected to be the default position?) really makes me wonder what sort of opinions your friends and family hold on this conflict...

And I don't think the homicidal Palestinians* would make any distinction between "good" Jews and "bad" Jews.

This may come as a shock to you, but homicidal maniacs of any kind don't usually concern themselves too much with rational distinctions of any sort.

There was a guy, I believe his name was Amos Boz, of Haifa, as left-wing as they come, in a restaurant owned by a good friend of his, who was Arab, when a gunman burst into the room to kill Mr. Boz for the crime of being Jewish. The owner attempted to protect his friend until the gunman made him back off or he would be killed too for the crime of befriending a Jew. The owner retreated, for which I don't blame him in the slightest, and Mr. Boz was killed. Here's a man who never oppressed anybody in his life, in fact IIRC he had been active in many pro-Palestinian causes, minding his own business in a restaurant whose owner was a close personal friend, and he was killed for being a Jewish son of a pig**.

Again, I fail to see what the actions of one deranged lunatic have anything to with, well, anything?

Incidentially, is this a news item that you are citing? Or is it anecdotal? Or is this just a story that you heard from somewhere? I'm not dismissing it, but you seem pretty vague about where you got this from.

**This is an actual epithet for Jews that they teach in the Palestinian schools.

See, yet again that is the problem with your claims: You just throw them out there without one iota of evidence to back them up. That makes it really difficult for someone like me to assess their credibility. So can you please provide us with a link or at the very least tell us where you get this information from? Or this another one of those "well, I haven't seen any evidence that it's not taught in Palestinian schools"?

The West Bank has 500,000 sons of pigs and dogs most of whom have done no one any more harm than Mr. Boz, and I see no reason to have any faith that the people who killed him would scruple at killing them.

I see your wild leaps of logic and reply to you with this.

[Shryke]

You did.

In response to my comment about large-scale attacks on the local Jews if there were an agreement made to have them stay as Palestinian citizens.

Ahh, you lack reading comprehension skills. My bad, I will try and speak at a lower level next time.

See, just because retribution is expected doesn't necessarily mean it's deserved.

Now I'll let you go think about that for awhile.

[Samalander]

On a personal note:

Rejoice, boarders, for I am returned!

1) If the Palestinians reach a peace agreement with Israel whereby they finally get their own state, I fail to see why they would feel the need to be hostile towards Israel at that point. In fact, Israel would likely be one of their biggest trading partners, so good relations would be very important for the sake of economic development if nothing else.

2) This may come as a shock to you, but homicidal maniacs of any kind don't usually concern themselves too much with rational distinctions of any sort.

Again, I fail to see what the actions of one deranged lunatic have anything to with, well, anything?

I see your wild leaps of logic and reply to you with this.

1) Yeah, sure, I'll go along with that. Unless, of course, getting their own state on the Disputed Territories is just step 1 in their agenda to remove the "Jewish Crusaders" from the region and dissolve the State of Israel. But they wouldn't plan to do that, would they? Such nice people...

2) The difference, being, of course, that we (mostly) denounce our homocidal maniacs, while the Palestinians (mostly) make heroes and martyrs out of them (they even put them on posters!!!).

[Shryke]

Good to have you back. And you've already characterized the Palestinians as irrational maniacs who's only goal is the death and destruction of all Jews in the Middle East. Wasting no time I see!

[Samalander]

Good to have you back. And you've already characterized the Palestinians as irrational maniacs who's only goal is the death and destruction of all Jews in the Middle East. Wasting no time I see!

1. Wow. Well that post was definately NOT a personal attack aimed against me.

2. Eh.. I did say "mostly" when talking about them glorifying their murderers in a death-cult sort of way. Wouldn't want to paint a whole people with one brush stroke, etc..

3. Since many key leaders of the Palestinian people have stated repeatedly that any accord with us is only temporary till they get the power to remove us, I don't think it's an entirely irrational subject of discussion.

Just because reality doesn't suit some people, doesn't mean it can be ignored.

[TerraPrime]

[mod hat]

Play nice.

Or suffer deletions and bans.

Your choice.

[/mod hat]