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Rape in fiction


MinDonner

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Maybe you talk to different people then me, but usually the reaction is "Well, that's how it was back then" without the second part of your sentence.

It's a statement of "fact" (rape was common), not a statement of morality (rape was ok back then because it was common).

Review page one of this thread: Case, Cersei.

Hrm, yeah, that particular example isn't any good. That girl was clearly serially raped by Gregor's men. Yes, that's exactly the sort of abuse a woman under those circumstances could expect, but it doesn't make it "not rape".

I'm not referring to the tavern girl here. I mean in the chapter when Arya is being frog-marched to Harrenhal. One of the girls objected and hit one of Gregor's men with a rock and lost her head for it. It doesn't make it "not rape" but apparently it makes it "okay".

Also, the claim that rape is socially acceptable within the society of the books. Its not. Stannis castrates people for it - others get sent to the Wall. Its common but its still a crime.

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But its not used so often. You've had to scrabble for instances where its implied, and very, very weakly at that (there is no evidence that Elrond's wife was raped). If it was so common you, and everyone else, would have tons of examples to note here. And no-one does.

This text:

"In 2509 Celebrian wife of Elrond was journeying to Lorien when she was waylaid in the Redhorn Pass, and her escort being scattered by the sudden assault of the Orcs, she was seized and carried off. She was pursued and rescued by Elladan and Elrohir, but not before she had suffered torment and had received a poisoned wound. She was brought back to Imladris, and though healed in body by Elrond, lost all delight in Middle-earth, and the next year went to the Havens and passed over Sea."

"Elladan and Elrohir, were out upon errantry: for they rode often far afield with the Rangers of the North, forgetting never their mother's torment in the dens of the orcs."

Given Tolkien's prudish sensibilities, its quite plausible. Of course, it could have just been that she was continuously tortured by a bunch of orcs.

There are plenty of other examples: Alan Moore, Morgan Llewelyn, Donaldson, Stephen King, Robert Jordan. Even crap like Goodkind. Just because you can't recall them, doesn't mean that they're not there.

ps. in Sandman (which is Gaiman's most notable work) its actually a plot device, where this completely evil author traps and rapes one of the Muses to get ideas for novels. Aside from the serial killer convention, it had to be one of the most disturbing Sandman's I ever read.

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One case of really bad rape was in "The Pillars of the Earth." Which was an Oprah's book club book and generally seems to be well liked by many readers (I was not impressed by the book). The rapes in this book are used for character development and to show that some guys are complete pricks. It may also have been used to show how little power women had at the time. Either way I thought the scenes were gratuitous,pointless, and disturbing, but maybe others think otherwise.

A man is raped in the "Monarchies of God" series but it is by a werewolf type creature. And without being too graphic I though the scene served its purpose.

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This is an interesting topic, and I think its a difficult discussion because:

Rape occurred in real life more than it actually does in historical fiction, fantasy, and fiction in general.

Rape is usually disturbing! People don't want to read about it.

For the most part, when I've read scenes that feature rape or violent sexual actions it's not with the major characters. Which is fine--it's realistic, whatever. But, the most disturbing scene of rape I've read was of a man, from Diana Gabaldon's Outlander series. I'm not going to put a spoiler, because anyone that has read these books knows what I'm talking about. The scene was a major plot point for the entire book, if not her whole series. It disturbed me so thoroughly that I felt uncomfortable about it for the remainder of the book.

edited for bad grammar.

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This text:

Given Tolkien's prudish sensibilities, its quite plausible. Of course, it could have just been that she was continuously tortured by a bunch of orcs.

Its plausible if you seek to interpret it that way.

There are plenty of other examples: Alan Moore, Morgan Llewelyn, Donaldson, Stephen King, Robert Jordan. Even crap like Goodkind. Just because you can't recall them, doesn't mean that they're not there.

ps. in Sandman (which is Gaiman's most notable work) its actually a plot device, where this completely evil author traps and rapes one of the Muses to get ideas for novels. Aside from the serial killer convention, it had to be one of the most disturbing Sandman's I ever read.

That's not really plenty is it?

I'm still waiting to see evidence of this "overuse". Surely it must be rampant. So why so few examples?

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There used to be a law saying that the local lord had the right to have sex with peasant girls on their wedding night. Was that not rape?

Ah, droit de seigneur, it's a non-urban myth. Typically though if a peasant girl lost her virginity prior to wedlock and the lord of the manor found out then her father would have to pay a fine to their lord. And the lord is unlikely to have been fussed as to the cause of the loss of virginity.

In the Canterbury Tales a knight is punished for raping a lady (he is sent on a quest to find out what women want so not exactly the full rigour of the law) equally in the art of courtly love the noble gentlemen is expected to behave properly and decently to noble women but is advised to do as he pleases with peasant women.

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That's not really plenty is it?

I'm still waiting to see evidence of this "overuse". Surely it must be rampant. So why so few examples?

Most the authors you listed had rape in their stories, and that's what I was responding to, while giving a few other well-known examples too.

As to whether its overused as a story trope or misused in genre... I'm not sure what you're qualifications for over-use are. I think the that its more problematic in comics (Identity Crisis, Women in Refrigerators), but has been misused (ie: Goodkind) by bad (yet popular) genre authors in the past.

Many of the authors you listed are quite good, so I don't think they are guilty of over-use or misuse.

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Stannis castrates people for it

Didn't remember that detail. Now I'm officially in love with Stannis, no matter his transgressions or delusions. Finally, a character sharing my views!

That's not really plenty is it?

I'm still waiting to see evidence of this "overuse". Surely it must be rampant. So why so few examples?

I guess it probably depends on whether person is bothered by rape. If you are, than you'll probably try to avoid such books, thus few examples. If you aren't, than you're unlikely to remember many cases.

I'd still add Deeds of Paksenarrion by Elizabeth Moon to the list - it's very, very creepy, maybe the creepiest rape I've ever encountered, and almost made me throw up. Probably because the author somehow presented it as a " moral victory" of the protagonist or something (don't ask).

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Ah, droit de seigneur, it's a non-urban myth. Typically though if a peasant girl lost her virginity prior to wedlock and the lord of the manor found out then her father would have to pay a fine to their lord. And the lord is unlikely to have been fussed as to the cause of the loss of virginity.

It should be pointed out that the reason for the fee is because the lord would usually have the right to demand a fee whenever his tenants got married. So it was more or less closing down a loophole.

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Review page one of this thread: Case, Cersei.

Uh, you may want to read page one again. The reason it's "not clear" is because has nothing to do with the time period and everything to do with the situation.

Is sex in an arranged marriage that exists for the purpose of having children rape? Maybe, but it's certainly more complicated then "Gregor and the Tavern Girl" type situation.

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Alexia,

]One of the girls objected and hit one of Gregor's men with a rock and lost her head for it. It doesn't make it "not rape" but apparently it makes it "okay".

No, that's the one I was talking of. She was serially raped by Gregor's men. Unfortunately for her, Gregor was her imprisoner and her judge. He killed her for it. It was a brutal injustice. It was definitely not "okay" to anyone but Greogor and his men.

As far as what Stannis does and what others do, the fact is that most people pragmatically in Westeros believe soldiers will indulge in rapine whenever there's the chance. Many will try to limit it, but because it's bad for discipline, not necessarily because it's criminal. Stannis would be one of the rare few who would do it specifically for reasons of justice.

Furthermore, I'd guess most people in Westeros will rationalize a knight forcing his attentions on a common girl as being a bit tawdry but, in the end, a step up for her rather than a kind of clear crime under many circumstances. That's not saying this sort of behavior is done out fully in the open and no one says "boo", but the nobility in Westeros, as a class, will protect their own.

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There IS an onscreen case of almost-rape in Tolkien. In The Children of Húrin, Túrin kills the bandit chief who was attempting to rape a local girl in the forest. It's not very explicit, but then, it was written by Tolkien.

Then there are enforced marriages, like the case of Aerin, which should count as actual serial rape.

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All kinds of violence is rampant and enjoyed in the spectrum of fantasy, so it's curious that rape receives the amount of attention it does.

I especially like the stipulation that it must forward a character arc [in this specific way] or enhance the setting in order to be relevant, and the rape scenes can never ever be written for pure entertainment, because that's sick.

Rape is the only violent act which I can think of that is regarded this way within speculative fiction.

Practically every fantasy/sci-fi author in existence draws out some carnage with descriptive glee. It's even there in children's books. And in real life, this kind of shit induces trauma to people. You don't get tortured, or have someone you care for butchered in some imaginative way and not be severely affected by it. Now, whether having your fingers individually chopped off and watching your family butchered in front of you or being raped is more severely emotionally damaging would of course depend on the individual. But arguing that rape is the end all be all worst violent act possible is pure bullshit.

If a person spent their childhood in a concentration camp and then read a book about a concentration camp, you would have to have some fucking balls on you to argue that they couldn't possibly be as emotionally affected as someone who had been raped and read a book with rape in it.

However, even the Mormon authors don't seem to have any compunction in writing mass slaughter and gruesome violence.

Seriously. Take Violence

"Throngor flexed his mighty thews and then thrust his sword through the head of his foe. Blood and brain spattered Throngor's chest and face. As the corpse collapsed to the ground, Throngor walked over and wiped the viscera-covered blade on the shirt of the trembling child before him, and then slapped the child hard across the cheek with the flat of his blade."

Not the most gloriously artistic passage, but it would hardly be something that would incite the furor in this thread, and certainly wouldn't be out of place within fantasy.

Now let's try this one. Rape:

"Throngor ripped the child's pants down, and bent him/her over. The weeping was making him hard. He spread the child's ass cheeks open and immediately thrust himself inside, reveling at the scream of agony that issued as he veritably gored the kid."

Like the first passage, this one relishes every detail, titillating the audience with its graphic description. Neither of them really contribute anything to the story other than violence for it's own sake. Both involve violently abusing a child. Whether that child is witnessing a gruesome murder and then have the gore wiped on them by the assailant, or whether they get raped, it's going to fuck that child up for life. Who could say which would more egregious?

But the fact of the matter is, in fantasy the first passage is pretty much common place. I bet a lot of people would even say "That was cool as shit," or "fun cheesiness." Throngor, depending upon his charm, could probably even still be a popular character, even it he didn't feel any regret at all for his actions. But for the second paragraph, that same audience would tear it apart with their fury. "Don't read this perverted trash," or "Anyone who enjoys this is a sick bastard." No fucking way Throngor would have a fan following.

And truth be told, it disturbs me that both kinds of violence aren't handled with the same respect, that there's even a "fun violence" at all.

So the message I get from this is not that a violation is bad - because most violence is that, yet it is accepted within fantasy - but rather sex itself is bad, and therefore if the violation is sexual then it's all the worse.

Mod Note by Bellis: I've added spoiler tags for those readers who might not want to read actual graphic violence or rape, even in a thread on the subject. Nothing else in the post has been changed.

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Seems like i must find me a loving and cute lesbian porn video as antidote for the feelings of guilt this thread gives.

Oh the unbearable guilt of being male

I don't give a fuck (HAH!) about weather it is realist for rape to be in a setting or not. You fucking realist gritty morons are irritating me for years. Go shag a sheep on a mountain somewhere if you like gritty so much.

Also seems trolling is much subtler now.

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Well, there's a reason why rape was once called "fate worse than death". You're dead, and that's that, nobody knows what happens next, you can imagine anything, it could certainly be, you know, better in the afterlife (or at least nor worse. Or nothing at all, whatever)! While there are enough RL cases to know exactly what could happen to a person after being raped, and it's not pretty.

Personally, I don't mind violence, even graphic (although given choice, I'd prefer it to be brief). Deaths, torture, mutilations, etc. just don't hold that inherent perverseness, that establishment of dominance as rape does. For me, it's psychological aspects of rape (as I imagine it) that make it so squicky.

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Huh, and no one has even got to beginning to explain (if you can) the numerous circumstances of rape in Goodkind's books...

I think sex in general works on a low par, compared to some other central themes. Sex is one of the most important things in life, yet only a small percentage of SFF books contain sexual acts being performed, and in some cases it is not even mentioned. Not even in jest. I'm not surprised authors sway away from writing about rape, even when they should as they're writing in medieval settings, but I think that they don't focus enough on sex more is an interestingly popular stance in the genre.

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I think sex in general works on a low par, compared to some other central themes. Sex is one of the most important things in life, yet only a small percentage of SFF books contain sexual acts being performed, and in some cases it is not even mentioned. Not even in jest. I'm not surprised authors sway away from writing about rape, even when they should as they're writing in medieval settings, but I think that they don't focus enough on sex more is an interestingly popular stance in the genre.

Modern American prudery, where a nipple on TV is cause for bannination but graphic violence and torture are A-OK?

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Deaths, torture, mutilations, etc. just don't hold that inherent perverseness, that establishment of dominance as rape does. For me, it's psychological aspects of rape (as I imagine it) that make it so squicky.

I think context is what you are after. You can absolutely use non-sexual violence and torture to demean and dominate someone. Sex isn't the only means to that end.

Take one instance, 1984. That was sadistic stuff. And the characters were completely dominated. They betrayed everything they believed in just like that. It certainly was a "fate worse than death," and it didn't take rape to turn and destroy them.

But often the context of torture is glorified. It's a crucible to test one's manliness. Heroes are expected to be tortured and come out all the stronger. It's jingoistic bullshit stories that have created this perception. Whereas with rape, the victims are expected to be shattered completely. There's no will to resist. The victims are too frail, and once their sexuality is violated they are annihilated utterly.

Both will seriously fuck you up. Even casual, ostensibly mild violence can fuck you up. And this is often handled with respect in non-genre works, but in the realms of fantasy where getting tortured a little just isn't grand enough a scale to compete, non-sexual violence becomes almost trivial.

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Both will seriously fuck you up. Even casual, ostensibly mild violence can fuck you up. And this is often handled with respect in non-genre works, but in the realms of fantasy where getting tortured a little just isn't grand enough a scale to compete, non-sexual violence becomes almost trivial.

Well, I'd say in shitty fantasy it is.

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