The Apocalypse comes early to Colorado Springs

[TheLoneliestMonk]

Except this isn't the entire US, it's one town where it's very possible those who can vote and need public transport outnumber those who can vote and don't.

OK, I read this to say it is entirely possible that in park slope there are more people who can afford to do without public transit than there are people who cannot do without public transit.

There was no implication that there were people who wanted to vote against who didn't. I really don't know how people got that impression.

I guess people focused in on the "can"?? I read that to mean, you know, are at least 18 and not felons.

[Shryke]

OK, I read this to say it is entirely possible that in park slope there are more people who can afford to do without public transit than there are people who cannot do without public transit.

There was no implication that there were people who wanted to vote against who didn't. I really don't know how people got that impression.

I guess people focused in on the "can"?? I read that to mean, you know, are at least 18 and not felons.

Yeah, I have no idea wtf those 2 are going on about.

I thought it was clear as day. I just added "can vote" because if you include teenageers without access to car, you probably get alot more "need Public Transport" types, but none of them can do anything about the situation in Colorado Springs.

But again, I guess Tyranny of the Majority is ok with alot of people.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Shryke,

But again, I guess Tyranny of the Majority is ok with alot of people.

I believe it's okay with you, depending upon the issue.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

The hypocrisy in this thread smells.

As a fiscal conservative I am often encouraged to "go without" government services. (I believe the usual method prescribed is forceful ejection from the country and exile on a deserted island). Here is a group of people who are actually doing what fiscal liberals around here say is correct, and they are getting lambasted for it.

Second these accusations of "tyranny of the majority" are bullshite. None of you would call it "tyranny of the majority" to provide government services over the objection of the minority (indeed, you loudly champion doing so). So why is it suddenly "tyranny" to cut the same services?

[timmet]

Where did the money go? Why is Colorado Springs (and Colorado in general, and California) broke?

HERE.

Douglas Bruce is the real estate maven/Orange County Conservative who got TABOR (Proposition 13) passed in California -- a ballot initiative making it very, very hard to increase property taxes on real estate. Essentially, citizens would have to vote their taxes higher in direct referenda. Which in a society less greedy and self-serving, more long-sighted, they ought to do. But in America, today, in the privacy of a voting booth? Who is going to pull the lever marker "Tax Me More, Pls"?

So Dougie bought lots of slums, turned them into expensive housing, and rented them at high rates w/out paying higher taxes on his now-more-valuable assets. Okay. I got no specific position on that. But it's been shown time and again that reasonable property taxes provide a revenue baseline that allows states and municipalities to budget well. Lacking that predictable income stream, governments are forced to rely on things like income tax, sales tax, and gas taxes.

Problem is, these are volatile and tend to all go south together. A modest economic downturn means less income, so less income tax, PLUS people buy less and drive less, so less sales and gas taxes, too. Since things like schools, policing, and road maintenance need stable funding sources to operate well, those states or munis that have cut property taxes tend to flourish in good times but get absolutely hammered in bad.

Dougie Bruce moved to Colorado Springs. It's a military town (Air Force Academy, NORAD) with lots of Christian Conservatives and evangelical churches and church-allied groups (Focus on the Family, New Life Church, etc). Also home to the US Olympic Training center. Great! Except ALL of these outfits are tax exempt. They do not pay taxes.

So why are the streetlights dimmed in Colorado Springs? Why is Colorado in the same hole as Sacramento? Because the uber-conservatives there took that California Cowbird Doug Bruce unto their bosum and voted themselves broke. Good for them, fuck them, whatever. They'll have to find their own definition of "essential services." It sucks for poor people, but then it always sucks for poor people.

(Colorado Springs also led the charge for Amendment 2, which would have prevented the state from imposing anti-discrimination laws or policies based on sexual orientation. It's quite the little town. :uhoh: Give it a miss and explore the South Platte Valley on the other side of Pike's Peak, that's my advice.)

[DanteGabriel]

As a fiscal conservative I am often encouraged to "go without" government services. (I believe the usual method prescribed is forceful ejection from the country and exile on a deserted island). Here is a group of people who are actually doing what fiscal liberals around here say is correct, and they are getting lambasted for it.

For the record, I'm not lambasting the citizens of Colorado Springs. I admire their willingness to walk the walk, unlike 99% of the rest of the right wing in this country. I do think their little social experiment is doomed to failure, but I do admire their pluck.

[Shryke]

Second these accusations of "tyranny of the majority" are bullshite. None of you would call it "tyranny of the majority" to provide government services over the objection of the minority (indeed, you loudly champion doing so). So why is it suddenly "tyranny" to cut the same services?

Because there's a vast difference between someone paying for services they don't want and someone not getting services they need.

Regardless, I'm just gonna laugh at this whole Libertarian "Paradise" of theres. I just pity the less fortunate who are getting their much needed services gutted.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Where did the money go? Why is Colorado Springs (and Colorado in general, and California) broke?

HERE.

Essentially, citizens would have to vote their taxes higher in direct referenda. Which in a society less greedy and self-serving, more long-sighted, they ought to do. But in America, today, in the privacy of a voting booth? Who is going to pull the lever marker "Tax Me More, Pls"?

I personally think that is a much better model. Maybe they listened to Tytler:

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess of the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship....

Seems like the voters there have attempted to create a fiscal model to avoid that unpleasant end....

[Kalbear]

Yes, because things like street lights, parks services and public transportation that is actually usable are all massive luxuries in the 21st century.

[timmet]

BTW, to be perfectly fair, lots of uber-liberal Californians have moved to Colorado (Denver, Boulder, Ft Collins) and started the push for higher levels of government services there and around the state. So in Colorado you have a populace demanding ever greater services while beating down all attempts to raise revenues to pay for them. Often the same people. Exactly what happened in California.

I like our v.low level of services in Wyoming, and I like our low taxes. But it means our streets don't get plowed. We don't get trash pickup, and I have to pay cash to put stuff in the landfill. We have half a dozen cops for a town of 28,000. There's no state-sponsored group health insurance plan. Poor people (we nearly qualify) generally have to get by as best they can. It's all a bit retro, and I gotta admit -- having lived and paid taxes in NY -- I prefer things that way.

[Shryke]

I personally think that is a much better model. Maybe they listened to Tytler:

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess of the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship....

Seems like the voters there have attempted to create a fiscal model to avoid that unpleasant end....

It's hilarious that you quote this because what's happening to Colorado Springs is EXACTLY what your quote warns against.

Well, not exactly since apparently Tyler was stupid enough not to consider that maybe instaed of voting themselves MORE shit, people would vote themselves less taxes.

But the idea is the same. Let people vote for what they want and what they want is more stuff and less taxes.

[The Iceman of the North]

It's hardly unheard of voters voting for higher taxes. Of course, this provides that the voters actually understand what the consequences are? The anti-tax/-government propaganda that have infused the American people is hardly helpful.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Well, not exactly since apparently Tyler was stupid enough not to consider that maybe instaed of voting themselves MORE shit, people would vote themselves less taxes.

They effectively have voted themselves less shit and less taxes, which isn't going to lead to a terminable fiscal collapse.

[Datepalm]

BTW, to be perfectly fair, lots of uber-liberal Californians have moved to Colorado (Denver, Boulder, Ft Collins) and started the push for higher levels of government services there and around the state. So in Colorado you have a populace demanding ever greater services while beating down all attempts to raise revenues to pay for them. Often the same people. Exactly what happened in California.

I like our v.low level of services in Wyoming, and I like our low taxes. But it means our streets don't get plowed. We don't get trash pickup, and I have to pay cash to put stuff in the landfill. We have half a dozen cops for a town of 28,000. There's no state-sponsored group health insurance plan. Poor people (we nearly qualify) generally have to get by as best they can. It's all a bit retro, and I gotta admit -- having lived and paid taxes in NY -- I prefer things that way.

Fair enough, but presumably you are healthy and employed in a job that pays enough for what you need.

Like Shryke said - Colorado Springs is going to be a great little town - for the rich.

The problem with cutting taxes isn't that it makes for messier parks, its that it promotes inequality. If thats what the fine folks of CS chose, they're welcome to it, but what they're doing is screwing over the poor, not exploring alternatives in budget allocation. Asshats. I'm sure they'll donate lots more of their newly freed up money to the soup kitchen though.

[DanteGabriel]

Fair enough, but presumably you are healthy and employed in a job that pays enough for what you need.

Like Shryke said - Colorado Springs is going to be a great little town - for the rich.

The problem with cutting taxes isn't that it makes for messier parks, its that it promotes inequality. If thats what the fine folks of CS chose, they're welcome to it, but what they're doing is screwing over the poor, not exploring alternatives in budget allocation. Asshats. I'm sure they'll donate lots more of their newly freed up money to the soup kitchen though.

Nah, they'll eventually either farm out more police and prison work to private companies or grudgingly pay more taxes to put more cops in the streets to keep the lazy poor down.

[Ser Greguh]

I'll be curious to see what happens to the rape rate in Colorado Springs with such a drastic cut to their street lamps (along with fewer cops). I'm all for cutting some corners in the name of fiscal responsibility but these measures strike me as grossly socially irresponsible.

[DanteGabriel]

I'll be curious to see what happens to the rape rate in Colorado Springs with such a drastic cut to their street lamps (along with fewer cops). I'm all for cutting some corners in the name of fiscal responsibility but these measures strike me as grossly socially irresponsible.

The free market will fix that too.

[Shryke]

The free market will fix that too.

Colorado Springs taking up Palin's idea of a rape-based economy?

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

The problem with cutting taxes isn't that it makes for messier parks, its that it promotes inequality. If thats what the fine folks of CS chose, they're welcome to it, but what they're doing is screwing over the poor, not exploring alternatives in budget allocation. Asshats. I'm sure they'll donate lots more of their newly freed up money to the soup kitchen though.

The only thing mentioned which could affect the poor disproportionately is that the buses will not run on evenings and weekends. The poor will still be able to go to work, still be able to send their kids to school. What amazing services do you imagine that the poor were getting from the city before that they won't be anymore?

I'll be curious to see what happens to the rape rate in Colorado Springs with such a drastic cut to their street lamps (along with fewer cops). I'm all for cutting some corners in the name of fiscal responsibility but these measures strike me as grossly socially irresponsible.

I'm going to guess not much as rapes typically take place inside, not on the street. Beat cops don't really come across rapes in progress and prevent them, they are investigated afterward. I imagine that will still take place. Then again, the Air Force Academy is right there and legend says it is the rape capitol of the country, so who knows.

[timmet]

Fair enough, but presumably you are healthy and employed in a job that pays enough for what you need.

Not really. I'm self-employed, have no access to health care and live on $24k a year, which is not very much money in the US. That is all I need. Other people may want more, but I'm mostly okay with the basics. Health insurance would be nice, I'd pay for it if fairly priced and pay higher taxes if needed; and I think a nationwide single-payer mechanism is the best way to deliver uniform access to everyone; but since that obviously isn't happening in America just now, I'll do without. Haven't been to a doctor in 15 years. I'll live until I die. *shrug* It's how everyone lived a century ago, and I'm no better or more worthy than those people.

Folks who want lots of public services -- and rich people benefit plenty from cities extending roads, water and sewer lines to their new housing developments -- but don't want to pay any taxes annoy me. Lowering property taxes IS regressive, just because the landed classes tend to be the moneyed classes. But I whinged when the county kept raising my property taxes 8% a year, just because I'm borderline for owning a house and higher taxes make it hard.

Financial crises like the one in CS are occasionally useful. They remind people how important certain public services are to them. They expose others as not that essential. And they lay bare the calculus of taxation and services for all to see. Government often feels like a Black Box: money goes in one end, programs & projects come out the other. The citizens of CS are about to learn something about the workings of the Box, and they'll need to decide for themselves what matters to them.