Free Cities/Western Essos Geography Speculation

[Spilt Pea Soup]

Oops, wrong thread.

Deleted.

[Daemon23]

I was wondering at speed though. How long would it have taken to cross the mediteranean, say from Constantinople to Alexandria, in medieval times?

According to a site I found here, under "average" conditions, in the 16th century, a voyage from Constantinople to Alexandria, at a distance of 770 miles, took about two weeks.

I get the impression that the Narrow Sea is if anything narrower than the Mediterranean.

[Guinevere Seaworth]

The ironmen do seem to be the fastest fleet around, possibly with the exception of the Summer Island Swan Ships, but those are described as huge trading vessels, so i'm assuming they're only fast relative to other trading ships, rather than to the much smaller longships. (though they seem to be considerably nicer than real viking ships. Vicatarion has a cabin.)

I was wondering at speed though. How long would it have taken to cross the mediteranean, say from Constantinople to Alexandria, in medieval times?

That is a tougher question than it looks. I was reading the Jason Voyage and Ulysses Voyage about sailing a replica bronze age galley in the Mediterrean Sea and the prevailing winds and currents had alot do with it with the sailing routes. It was a lot faster sailing to Athens to Alexandria then Alexandria to Athens just due to the prevailing winds and currents. IIRC, the sailing routes in the Eastern Mediterrean ran counterclockwise. It was always preferable to sail rather than to row. I remember a passage in the Ulysess Voyage as they were rounding the southern tip of Greece, a storm caught them, and the next thing they knew, they were almost at the coast of Northern Africa. They had a hard time getting back to Greece while sailing against the current.

I know that didn't really answer your question, but if the winds and currents are favorable, one can sail a narrow body of water in a bronze aged galley quite quickly ( a matter of days versus weeks)!

[Datepalm]

very interesting, thank guys.

The whole mediterannean has a counterclocwise current, so that makes sense. Ships in the narrow sea, at least quick ones, seem to rely on rowers though. (Catelyns journey south was on a Tyroshi ship that fought through a calm on oars.) So no wider than the mediterranean, it seems, since I have a hard time believeing that chapter was meant to represent more than two weeks on the ship for Arya.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

Something relevant is the date of the technology for sailing into contrary winds ('tacking' maybe?). I've read that it wasn't available either at Sluys or for the planned French invasions of England in the mid-14th century, which delayed one of them for several weeks. I don't know when that was invented, but I suspect they had it by the 16th century, and don't have it in aSoIaF. Though maybe in both cases some cultures further east had the ability much sooner.

[Acid Rainbow]

Both the Westerosi and the Free Cities seem to use galleys and cogs, as they did in the real high middle ages. Dromonds (mentioned by Cersei in AFFC) are large war galleys. The ocean-going carracks are from the late middle ages, and haven't been invented in ASOIAF.

The Ironmen use longships. That whole Viking culture went out in the early middle ages. The real-life medieval Scandinavians used fleets of viking-style longships, which were inefficient against enemy galleys. There was an incident where a small fleet of German sellsails fought against a superior number of Norwegian longships, and ripped them to pieces.

I'm also curious about the appearances of Free Cities like Myr and Volantis, and what their cultures are like. What we saw of Pentos and Braavos was pretty interesting-

[Padraig]

One angle I had forgotten about is that Sam found a book called "Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targaryen from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons".

So not the first exile for that house.

[Werthead]

One angle I had forgotten about is that Sam found a book called "Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targaryen from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons".

So not the first exile for that house.

I thought that was a Westerosi book referring to House Targaryen's exile (?) from Valyria to Dragonstone before the Doom, and 'apotheosis' was a reference to Aegon becoming King of the Seven Kingdoms.

[Padraig]

Yes. Sorry. That is what I was talking about. My post must have been unclear.

I'd forgotten they were exiled to Dragonstone.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

The ocean-going carracks are from the late middle ages, and haven't been invented in ASOIAF.

Fixed.

"Lord Stannis's Fury, a triple decked war galley of three hundred oars, looked almost small beside some of the big-bellied carracks and cogs that surrounded her."

"And sometimes there were Westerosi too, oarsmen and sailors off carracks out of Oldtown, trading galleys out of Duskendale, King's Landing and Gulltown, big-bellied wine cogs from the Arbor."

[Acid Rainbow]

Fixed.

"Lord Stannis's Fury, a triple decked war galley of three hundred oars, looked almost small beside some of the big-bellied carracks and cogs that surrounded her."

"And sometimes there were Westerosi too, oarsmen and sailors off carracks out of Oldtown, trading galleys out of Duskendale, King's Landing and Gulltown, big-bellied wine cogs from the Arbor."

Whoops, my bad. I didn't pay enough attention to those parts. But if ocean-going ships have been invented, why do they still use mostly galleys? And why haven't they traveled the sunset sea?

[Guest Other-in-Law]

Whoops, my bad. I didn't pay enough attention to those parts. But if ocean-going ships have been invented, why do they still use mostly galleys? And why haven't they traveled the sunset sea?

King Brandon the Shipwright did sail off into the Sunset Sea, and was never heard from again. That was obviously a sufficient disincentive for his son, who burned the remaining Stark fleet. As for the rest of the world, presumably no one is so terribly desperate to find a different route to Asshai that they're willing to risk Brandon's fate just to avoid some Qartheen taxes.

It seems that everyone sails everywhere in the known part of the world; an Asshai'i ship even wrecked in wildling territory north of the Shadow Tower, while Westerosi and Free Cities and Summer Isles ship go all the way to the Jade Sea and back. It all seems acceptable, no one has an outright monopoly on trade routes that squeezes others out of the market.

[Acid Rainbow]

Oh, right. I didn't catch that. It seems like Westerosi society is much more advanced than the medieval European, what with their maesters and their trade with distant lands like the Summer Islands.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

Mind, that's just my interpretation, I could be wrong. But as I think now of why RL western history saw such a push for exploration, I think it may have had more to do with difficult geography than merely enemy powers controlling pinch-points. Or rather, in the pre-suez canal era it wasn't just pinch points, it was a complete hiatus of sea-thoroughfares, unless you went all the way around the southern tip of Africa.

Perhaps if Free Cities merchanters had to sail all the way south of jungly, plague infested Sothoryos to reach the Jade Sea (or trade through an overland route at Qarth, not just paying passage fees in the straits), there would be more interest in finding a western route. Necessity is the mother of invention, but a convenient status quo is the anti-aphrodisiac that prevents it's conception.

[Werthead]

Yes. Sorry. That is what I was talking about. My post must have been unclear.

I'd forgotten they were exiled to Dragonstone.

We don't know if they were exiled by the rest of Valyrian society to Dragonstone, or if they exiled themselves based on the prophetic dreams of one of their forebears. I suspect the latter (as nice as it would be for not yet another prophecy to be involved), since the Targs seemed to be confirmed at lords of Dragonstone, were allowed to take their dragons and so on, which the rest of Valyrian society may have objected to if they were being exiled for some crime or rebellion.

[Padraig]

We don't know if they were exiled by the rest of Valyrian society to Dragonstone, or if they exiled themselves based on the prophetic dreams of one of their forebears.

Huh. Never thought of that either. I could see them been exiled to some misbeggotten island thousands of kms from the Freehold but the dragon angle does suggest you are right.

[georgeforeman]

Necessity is the mother of invention, but a convenient status quo is the anti-aphrodisiac that prevents it's conception.

You wrung every bit symbolism out of that metaphor, and I salute you for it.

[AzureOwl]

The anology does not work, I think. Valyria actually expanded much more west than it did east. It subdued Ghis and its vassals, but it never conquered Qarth, if I remember correctly, and distance between Valyria and, for example, Pentos, seem to be much larger than the distance between Qarth and Slaver's Bay - meaning that Qarth would be nearer to Valyria proper and thus likely a nearer and richer target than the barbaric west.

Don’t be so sure. For all we know the abandoned cities that Daenerys finds in the red wastes on her way to Qarth may have been Valyrian in origin. As far as I know we never did find out who built them.

Another factor to consider is that the Qartheen had warlocks, who had an old reputation for being formidable. At its height their sorcery may have been enough to give the Valyrians pause.

Whoops, my bad. I didn't pay enough attention to those parts. But if ocean-going ships have been invented, why do they still use mostly galleys?

Safety reasons I would imagine.

Remember that they don’t have gunpowder or cannons. I’m no naval expert but I would imagine that when running into pirates a galley is far more capable of defending itself than a carrack. A galley would be more maneuverable closer to shore, and would carry a far larger crew of rowers that, if push came to shove, can help fight off the attackers.

Without guns and firearms a carrack, caravel or cog would be a sitting duck for every pirate that could catch up to her.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

Don’t be so sure. For all we know the abandoned cities that Daenerys finds in the red wastes on her way to Qarth may have been Valyrian in origin. As far as I know we never did find out who built them.

There was a dragon skeleton that one of Dany's bloodriders found in the Red Waste. That may be an indication of Valyrian military interest in that direction.

[The Leech Lord]

Where does everyone get that Valyria never conquered Quarth from? I don't remember anything on the topic. Is it just an assumption, or is there evidence for it?