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Free Cities/Western Essos Geography Speculation


Werthead

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Guest Other-in-Law

Where does everyone get that Valyria never conquered Quarth from? I don't remember anything on the topic. Is it just an assumption, or is there evidence for it?

Not everyone does think that. There is no clear evidence one way or the other.

Personally, I've speculated that Qarth was either conquered outright and ruled as a province, or at least bullied into becoming a tributary state. Qarth's greatest days seem to be well in the past, they no longer seem to have a strong unified government but instead a huge council of squabbling descendants of past kings, a convoluted oligarchy with each member seated on their own personal throne. Valyria is a plausible explanation for what happened to change them, but the most we can do is speculate.

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The Free Cities are very interesting to me. They have a culture entirely different from Westeros, and are all old colonies of Valyria.

ADWD spoilers below (I don't know how to do a spolier tag):

This is what we know about them:

Braavos is the Venice of Martin-verse, the most powerful of the Free Cities. Their city of canals and the Iron Bank are very much like medieval Venice. We know it was founded by slaves who escaped Valyria and is therefore strongly anti-slavery. Since Arya is there, we know pretty much everything about the place.

Pentos is one of the northern Free Cities, since it's affected by the decade-long winters. They have brick towers, high walls, and are experts at ass-kissing the nearby Dothraki. Even though Dany lives there at first, we don't know much about their culture.

Norvos is supposedly a theocracy (I don't remember who said it). It has a high and a low city, and is ruled by the bearded priests. Maybe I'm just guessing here, but would Norvos be the Russia of Martin-verse?

Lys...well, there are constantly references to Lys popping up in the books, but we don't know much about it. They have blond hair. They are very fond of using poisons, and we hear they worship a love goddess. It seems to have a strong seafaring culture, judging from Salladhor Saan. Lyseni pirates and sellsails are often mentioned. The Lyseni are called "girly" and "degenerate" a few times and like to eat snails, so they can be the France of Martin-verse. :D

Qohor is mostly known as the hometown of Vargo Hoat. Its god is the Black Goat. We haven't see it, but Dany travels through the Forest of Qohor in AGOT. It seems to be the only Free City that doesn't touch the sea, but lies in a forest.

Tyrosh...we know little about, except for that its men dye their beards in funky colors. Its women dye their hair. Tyroshi sellswords seem to be very, very common. Their ruler is called the "Archon". Perhaps the Greece of Martin-verse.

Myr is an interesting Free City, since lots of technology comes from there. We hear about Myrish lenses, Myrish eyes (telescopes), Myrish crossbowmen, etc. They have big temples to R'hllor. Also, Myr may have swamps. :D

Volantis is the most interesting of the Free Cities - the direct heir of Valyria, it seems. In AFFC, we learn they are "a strange and subtle people", and that they have the most Valyrian blood. Slavery is their main business (they have much trade with Slaver's Bay) and they mark their slaves by tattooing their faces. We learn a lot about Volantis in ADWD - they have five slaves for every free man, and the rich people move around in carts pulled by dwarf elephants.

Lorath we know nothing about. The less said about Lorath the better.

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Lorath we know nothing about. The less said about Lorath the better.

Its on an archipelago, and Jaquen H'jhar, at least that persona, was from there and seemed reasonably fond of it. Of course, he was also reasonably fond of Biter.

Also, maybe spoilerize some of the DWD stuff?

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We don't speak about Lorath around here.

(I bet it's the Varys of the Free Cities).

On a more serious note, there was virtually nothing I found on Lorath except what it says in Concordance. I didn't count Jaqen since he's actually from Braavos.

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Guest Other-in-Law

We don't speak about Lorath around here.

We do!

The free City of Lorath is governed by the Council of Once-ler, who oversee the Thneed weaving guilds (the thneed is a garment that everyone needs, and which forms Lorath's principle export). The original Onceler arrived from the Essos mainland millennia ago under Valyrian auspices, gradually driving off the few remaining Children of the Forest, who had grown weaker after the Hammer of the Waters shattered the broken Arm of Dorne, and separated them from their brethren. The Once-ler cut down the weirwood trees (which they called Truffula trees) wherever they found them, both to deny the Children the ability to speak through the trees, and for use of their foliage in thneed production. The deforestation resulted in the extinction of the Barba-loots, Humming Fish, and Swomee Swans, which are now known only by stuffed specimens at the Citadel.

The last recorded encounter with a Child of the Forest occurred some fifty years after the Doom of Valyria, which was attested to by the Lord Mayor of Lorath of the time, but which claims a feat that would seem to defy the very laws of physics. Since then, Lorath has steadily declined; the ruined hulks of it's guildhalls and thneed warehouses offering a picturesque vista for those who venture to the southern reaches of the Stepstones.

:P

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The last recorded encounter with a Child of the Forest occurred some fifty years after the Doom of Valyria, which was attested to by the Lord Mayor of Lorath of the time, but which claims a feat that would seem to defy the very laws of physics. Since then, Lorath has steadily declined; the ruined hulks of it's guildhalls and thneed warehouses offering a picturesque vista for those who venture to the southern reaches of the Stepstones.

:P

Is there a solid reason to assume Lorath is actually in the stepstones? (to be sure, I bow before your mapping expertise.) I thought it was on a seperate group of islands somewhat further north (possibly quite close to the mainland) as i'd think we would have heard it mentioned in the Myr-Tyrosh-Lys bickering if it were more in their area. Pure speculation on extremely thin ice, of course, but we would never get anywhere if we let that stop us!

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Guest Other-in-Law

Is there a solid reason to assume Lorath is actually in the stepstones? (to be sure, I bow before your mapping expertise.) I thought it was on a seperate group of islands somewhat further north (possibly quite close to the mainland) as i'd think we would have heard it mentioned in the Myr-Tyrosh-Lys bickering if it were more in their area. Pure speculation on extremely thin ice, of course, but we would never get anywhere if we let that stop us!

Horton Hears a Who as abortion commentary notwithstanding, a relatively safe rule of thumb is that posts making Dr Seuss references shouldn't be taken too terribly seriously.

:leaving:

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posts making Dr Seuss references shouldn't be taken too terribly seriously.

I'll pretend you never said that and maybe we will be able to maintain a working relashionship.

You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself in any direction you choose.

So, to Lorath. IIRC correctly some conclusions were reached - its on islands, its relatively poorer and much more minor than most of the other cities, possibly becuase of its Island location impacting economic development and because we simply hear of it so little, and the one character we meet from there is actually using it as disguise, presumably because he dosen't expect to meet anyone who's going to want to nostalgize about that great little cafe above the harbour, as today you're better off pretending to be from Snifflegibbet, Kentucky rather than New York if you hope to maintain a disguise.

Ergo, Lorath is away from central locations like the stepstones.

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Volantis sounds like the most interesting Free City. Oldest and most "Valyrian" of the cities, five slaves for every free man, slaves marked by tattooed faces, rich citizens pulled in carts by dwarf elephants...Other-in-Law would make an awesome drawing of it.

It's cool how the Free Cities are much more advanced than the Westerosi, who are unwashed barbarians compared to them. On the other hand, the Free Cities still have slavery...

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We don't speak about Lorath around here.

(I bet it's the Varys of the Free Cities).

On a more serious note, there was virtually nothing I found on Lorath except what it says in Concordance. I didn't count Jaqen since he's actually from Braavos.

Jaqen is from Lorath, not Braavos.

Unless you are making a subtle reference to Jaqen =Syrio? If so, carry on, I'll just look the other way ;)

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I think TFJ's means that since he's a Faceless Man of Braavos, he's probably Braavosi in origin... but I don't know that that follows. I mean, we don't know that Jaqen is really Jaqen -- it may just be another face -- but he certainly seems to be carrying out the guise of a Lorathi. Whether Jaqen is in origin Braavosi or from elsewhere, we don't know. He could well and truly be Lorathi.

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Arya's on her way to becoming a Faceless (Wo)Man, and she's not a Braavosi. No reason to believe that all Faceless Men originate in Braavos, I think. Too little data.

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The Ghiscari cities are the Greece of Martinworld.

Huh? I didn't get that vibe at all. Did they invent philosophy, theatre and literature?

The Ghiscari cities come across as sort of Mesopotamian to me.

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Qarth is a weird and interesting place. Someone said it's the Constantinople of Martin-verse, although I got an India vibe from it (what with the war elephants and city walls with Kama Sutra carvings). They do everything with style - even their hitmen say "I am so sorry" before killing the victims.

In ADWD, the Qartheen even declare war on Dany by sending her a silk glove stained with blood. Like I said, always stylish.

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Qarth is a weird and interesting place. Someone said it's the Constantinople of Martin-verse, although I got an India vibe from it (what with the war elephants and city walls with Kama Sutra carvings). They do everything with style - even their hitmen say "I am so sorry" before killing the victims.

Always puts me in mind of some psuedo!Persia actually - effete, decadent, ancient, a bit...pastel colored. I'd expect something more vibrant from psuedo!India.

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George never borrows from just one place, really. Even Westeros draws from a number of different areas and periods of Europe. Qarth has the Byzantine qualities I mentioned (the triple-walls, as Constantinople, and the strategic location controlling a strait), but it also has that Indian-style sexual carving, too, and doubtless one can pull other things into it. The curious government organization seems pure Vance, OTOH.

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George never borrows from just one place, really. Even Westeros draws from a number of different areas of Europe. Qarth has the Byzantine qualities I mentioned (the triple-walls, as Constantinople, and the strategic location controlling a strait), but it also has that Indian-style sexual carving, too, and doubtless one can pull other things into it. The curious government organization seems pure Vance, OTOH.

Its less about actual historical influences and more about where in Fantasyland something plops down in an atmospheric, allusiony sort of sense. Thematic geography ftw. :thumbsup:

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