Free Cities/Western Essos Geography Speculation

[Spastic Plastic]

Agree. Someone (was it Other in Law?) said that Qarth used to be ruled by kings and queens, but Valyria forced it to become a sort of republic/oligarchy, resulting in the Pureborn which was a council where everyone sat on their personal throne. We see the exact same government style in every Free City, as well as Slaver's Bay. Which indicates that Valyria once ruled the whole continent.

[Miriel]

Huh? I didn't get that vibe at all. Did they invent philosophy, theatre and literature?

I don't know if the Ghiscari did. I know the Greeks didn't "invent" theatre and literature. I'll give you the philosophy bit. ;)

[Artas]

I know the Greeks didn't "invent" theatre and literature. I'll give you the philosophy bit. ;)

Granted. My point is, the Greeks started the *western* traditions of theatre, literature, philosophy and a whole bunch of other stuff. Old Ghis never felt like a western culture to me at all. I'd sooner equate them with the Babylonians, the Persians or another ancient Mesopotamian empire. What's supposed to be Greek about them?

[Guest Other-in-Law]

The lockstep legions and gladiatorial combat of the Ghiscari evoke Rome, their losing battles against Valyria evoke Carthage, the stepped pyramids evoke Mesopotamia or possibly Meso-America, and their sheer bloodiness puts me in mind of the Aztecs a little, but in a very vague way. The wacky hairdos...eh...some sort of mix of pompadour, liberty spikes, and Manchu dowager. Though this was actually the closest google yielded.

[Spastic Plastic]

Ghis definitely reminded me of those Aztec human-sacrifice brick pyramids. Nothing Persian about them, like many people say.

[Ran]

I think the pyramids are intended to evoke ziggurats rather than the Mesoamerican pyramids.

[Datepalm]

They've got terrased gardens reminscent of the hanging gardens of babylon too.

[Dracarys!]

I was just looking at the maps on aSoS and seeing the marks signaling cities - "city" vs "ruined city", and noticed that there's a few cities that aren't marked as ruined, especially Tyria. Have they been mentioned? I'm curious because they seem to be quite close to ruined Valyria, and I'm wondering what's over there.

[Werthead]

I was just looking at the maps on aSoS and seeing the marks signaling cities - "city" vs "ruined city", and noticed that there's a few cities that aren't marked as ruined, especially Tyria. Have they been mentioned? I'm curious because they seem to be quite close to ruined Valyria, and I'm wondering what's over there.

The Lands of the Long Summer have been mentioned a few times in the books. I assume they were the first areas conquered by Valyria after it began its expansion and remained important strongholds of the empire despite not being the actual heartland (the comparison would be say to Sicily in the Roman Empire). Their current status would be quite interesting to see.

I assume some of these lands will be seen in ADWD as various characters travel from Westeros and the Free Cities to Slaver's Bay. Those going overland will all presumably have to pass through the Lands of the Long Summer and along the Black Cliffs to get to Meereen.

[bertramboso]

The bloodymindedness of the Ghiscari reminded me more of the Assyrians than the Aztecs-the Ghiscari seem to be sadists for the sake of sadism, rather than with a religious motivation, a la the Aztecs.

The Slaver's Bay cities remind me of a mix of the ancient Mesopotamian city-states and Carthage, for the most part.

[Snowmelter]

There seem to be a couple of intact cities in Sothoryos as well. Did Valyria ever conquer that far south? I wonder if this part of the planet will be developed in the story at all or just left as the "continent of mystery."

[Spastic Plastic]

The Assyrians were not sadists for the sake of sadism, where did you get that from? They were a warlike people, and very successful at conquest since they were the first in the area to invent weapons of iron.

The Ghiscari have some parallels to Aztecs (stepped pyramids, slavery) and others to the Roman Empire (legionaries, gladiator games, the toga/tokar). But ultimately, they're pretty unrealistic since there are no ethnic groups that are 100% evil and violent only for the sake of violence, like every freeborn Ghiscari seems to be. From what we've seen, the only good people in Astapor were the slaves (and some slaves, like King Cleaver, turned out to be bad guys). Seriously, these Ghiscari need to be ruled by the wisdom of a white person.

Although their wacky hairstyles are cool.

[Ran]

Uhm. The Ghiscari are not 100% evil and violent for the sake of violence by any stretch of the imagination.

We saw an extremely limited slice of their culture and their ways. To extrapolate from that that they're an Evil Unrealistic Culture is laughably silly.

I'm not sure why wild speculative leaps are quite so popular in this thread.

[Miriel]

The Assyrians were not sadists for the sake of sadism, where did you get that from? They were a warlike people, and very successful at conquest since they were the first in the area to invent weapons of iron.

The Ghiscari have some parallels to Aztecs (stepped pyramids, slavery) and others to the Roman Empire (legionaries, gladiator games, the toga/tokar). But ultimately, they're pretty unrealistic since there are no ethnic groups that are 100% evil and violent only for the sake of violence, like every freeborn Ghiscari seems to be. From what we've seen, the only good people in Astapor were the slaves (and some slaves, like King Cleaver, turned out to be bad guys). Seriously, these Ghiscari need to be ruled by the wisdom of a white person.

Although their wacky hairstyles are cool.

Assyrians and their unpleasant methods of enforcing their rule aside, I think that GRRM wrote the Slaver's Bay culture to be quite unpleasant so that, when Dany unleashes her giant can of whoop-ass upon them, we cheer and don't think for minute about whether that was the right thing to do, etc. We are 100% on her side. If he had made them a pretty nice suburb instead of a slaving, child murdering/torturing cesspool of despair, we might have had some second thoughts about it all.

Although Martin being Martin, I am pretty sure it is not as simple as that, and there will be some fine tuning coming up, as Dany learns how to rule her kingdom.

[Darzin]

Spoiler ADWD

If you read the Dany chapter included at the end of Feast you will see that the Ghiscari are not all evil Dany has several working as her counselors Reznak Mo Reznak and the Shavepate, She also deals with the petitions of some notables in the city and none of these people are sadistic for the sake of being sadistic.If you read the Dany chapter included at the end of Feast you will see that the Ghiscari are not all evil Dany has several working as her counselors Reznak Mo Reznak and the Shavepate, She also deals with the petitions of some notables in the city and none of these people are sadistic for the sake of being sadistic.

[Miriel]

If you read the Dany chapter included at the end of Feast you will see that the Ghiscari are not all evil Dany has several working as her counselors Reznak Mo Reznak and the Shavepate, She also deals with the petitions of some notables in the city and none of these people are sadistic for the sake of being sadistic.

Interesting, but you might want to spoiler this, not everyone wants to read ahead. I know that when Feast came out it seemed to me as if I had already read most of the book from all the sample chapters I had read---I don't want to do that again :)

[Guest Other-in-Law]

Seriously, these Ghiscari need to be ruled by the wisdom of a white person.

Ugh.

The Valyrians were white people, and they engaged in slaving on a truly massive scale, as the KoM's conversation with Arya reveals. And the Valyrians have largely made the Ghiscari what they are today, they don't even speak the original Ghiscari language anymore, just High Valyrian. For all we know, the Ghiscari may have not even practiced slavery in the days of the old Empire.

[Darzin]

Interesting, but you might want to spoiler this, not everyone wants to read ahead. I know that when Feast came out it seemed to me as if I had already read most of the book from all the sample chapters I had read---I don't want to do that again

Oops, sorry I didn't figure it was a spoiler because the chapter was included in the end of my copy of a Feast for Crows, but I'll put spoiler text on it anyway just to be safe.

Yeah I've only read this chapter and one other, once I realized how many there were I stopped there's like 9 in the ADWD forum thats a lot of the book.

[TrueMetis]

the stepped pyramids evoke Mesopotamia or possibly Meso-America,

They were stepped pyramids? I always imagined more egyptian style with windows and the occasional balcony. You know a place someone could live in instead of be buried in. To bad it was all really cool in my head, thanks for ruining it for me.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

They were stepped pyramids?

Only in a literal sense.

"Astapor was a queer city even to the eyes of one who had walked within the House of Dust and bathed in the Womb of the World beneath the Mother of Mountains. All the streets were made of the same red brick that had paved the plaza. So too were the stepped pyramids, the deep dug fighting pits with their rings of descending seats, the sulfurous fountains and gloomy wine caves, and the ancient walls that encircled them."