Free Cities/Western Essos Geography Speculation

[TrueMetis]

Only in a literal sense.

"Astapor was a queer city even to the eyes of one who had walked within the House of Dust and bathed in the Womb of the World beneath the Mother of Mountains. All the streets were made of the same red brick that had paved the plaza. So too were the stepped pyramids, the deep dug fighting pits with their rings of descending seats, the sulfurous fountains and gloomy wine caves, and the ancient walls that encircled them."

Damn

[Miriel]

Ugh.

I read that and assumed that TFJ was ironically referencing Rudyard Kipling's "White Man's Burden"-- if not I guess that "ugh" is all one can say. But I did not take it as a serious statement that the Essosians needed to be ruled by the Raj for their own good.

Maybe we ought to move this seemingly benign geography thread over to the "Is Martin Orientalist" thread? ;)

[Spastic Plastic]

Ugh indeed, Other-in-Law.

Seriously, do I need to put a big "THIS IS SARCASM" warning next to all of these kind of comments?

If you guys read the Dany chapters in ASOS and spoilers from ADWD thoroughly, you'll also come to the conclusion that the Ghiscari are a naturally evil race who need to be ruled by white Dany for their own good. She even

Refuses to sail for Westeros because the Ghiscari would wipe out each other without Dany in charge

Miriel: I'll stop bitching about GRRM's closet racism and take my arguments to that other thread. Let's restart the geography convo again.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

Ugh indeed, Other-in-Law.

Seriously, do I need to put a big "THIS IS SARCASM" warning next to all of these kind of comments?

Yes, unless you make it otherwise clear through context that they don't represent your actual views. Tone of voice doesn't help with written communication, and people do genuinely express all manner of repugnant opinions on the internet, these forums are no exception (various characters deserving to be raped, Tywin Lannister or being a model parent, etc).

[AzureOwl]

The Assyrians were not sadists for the sake of sadism, where did you get that from? They were a warlike people, and very successful at conquest since they were the first in the area to invent weapons of iron.

The Ghiscari have some parallels to Aztecs (stepped pyramids, slavery) and others to the Roman Empire (legionaries, gladiator games, the toga/tokar). But ultimately, they're pretty unrealistic since there are no ethnic groups that are 100% evil and violent only for the sake of violence, like every freeborn Ghiscari seems to be. From what we've seen, the only good people in Astapor were the slaves (and some slaves, like King Cleaver, turned out to be bad guys). Seriously, these Ghiscari need to be ruled by the wisdom of a white person.

Although their wacky hairstyles are cool.

One point that must be taken into account is the fact that the 3 Ghiscari cities that we see are probably not representative of Ghiscari culture as a whole. The 3 cities of Slaver’s Bay represent a situation that to the extent of my knowledge has no direct analogue in the real world.

Their entire economy seems to be based on the slave trade, be it breeding, breaking, training or as middlemen. With every slave-owning culture in our world, as far as I know, slaves were means to an end, tools to be used for something else: agriculture, soldiers, household service, specialized professionals, etc.; and that influenced the way they were treated.

In Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen, slaves are the mean in themselves. A society whose very existence is dependent in breaking the spirits of slaves so they can be sold cannot be expected to be anything but calloused.

For all we know the people of New Ghis could answer the pleas from help from Slaver’s Bay with a hearty: “Fuck you! And good riddance!”

[Spastic Plastic]

Let's face it, guys. The Ghiscari slavers could have been written by Terry Goodkind.

[The Leech Lord]

Let's face it, guys. The Ghiscari slavers could have been written by Terry Goodkind.

That is, I believe, rather the point. Dany is seeing things far too simply. And because we're only seeing what she sees, thats all we get. Very effective use the of the limited perspective. Thats how I've always seen GRRM as intending it, though I admit I've got no evidence other than my own interpretation. Guess we'll have to wait until Dany either starts seeing things in a more complex way or for her to meet up with other POV characters to tell for certain.

[Darzin]

Yes Dany is seeing things to simply thats the whole piont of what happened in Astapor, Dany figured that if she got rid of the evil slavers and put the good slaves in charge everything would work out fine, but it didn't because it takes more then that to change a culture without jsut changing who sits were.

And as I mentioned before Spoiler ADWD

The Shavepate, Reznak Mo Reznak, and Hizdahr zo Loraq, are all dsitinct non cartoonish Ghiscari and their just from the first Dany chapter in the back of AFFC.

And the only Ghiscari we reall even saw in Astapor was Kraznys true there were some others in the background, but he did all the talking so really we have a sample of one awfull Ghiscari against the three I just listed. True their culture is awfull and promotes atrocities, but its comparable to the Aztecs culture of ritual humand sacrifice, and slavery.

[Snowmelter]

One point that must be taken into account is the fact that the 3 Ghiscari cities that we see are probably not representative of Ghiscari culture as a whole. The 3 cities of Slaver’s Bay represent a situation that to the extent of my knowledge has no direct analogue in the real world.

Their entire economy seems to be based on the slave trade, be it breeding, breaking, training or as middlemen. With every slave-owning culture in our world, as far as I know, slaves were means to an end, tools to be used for something else: agriculture, soldiers, household service, specialized professionals, etc.; and that influenced the way they were treated.

In Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen, slaves are the mean in themselves. A society whose very existence is dependent in breaking the spirits of slaves so they can be sold cannot be expected to be anything but calloused.

For all we know the people of New Ghis could answer the pleas from help from Slaver’s Bay with a hearty: “Fuck you! And good riddance!”

Why, exactly, are they not representative of Ghis culture as a whole? Would you say Los Angeles, Kansas City, and New York are a fair representation of our American culture. If not, which three cities? Oh, by the way, since the USA is huge pop wise compared to slavers bay, how many cities would count to make an accurate demographic study?

[Ran]

I think it's probably going too far to say that the attitudes towards slavery seen in the Ghiscari cities are not representative. That said, we see the attitudes of only some of the slavers, and other slavers may feel differently. We also do not know how many in the populace actually own slaves -- this may be the aristocratic 10% that we're looking at, and the other 90% of the free population isn't quite so blaisé about what's going on with the slaves, but have no power to stop it.

[Lord Varys]

It is already established that actually the valyrians made the Ghiscari what they are now. They and their dragons ruined the fertile lands around their cities, so the only real trade they could made real money with was slavery. I also assume that Slaver's Bay did not gain its reputation after the Doom, but that the valyrians encouraged or forced them to do the dirty work of providing slaves for them.

Dany's attempt to destroy the slavery culture certainly is admirably, but she already has faced certain problems, and it is truly interesting how this situation is resolved when she leaves. I can't see her failing completely and/or being forced to flee Meereen, as this likely would shatter her determination to return to Westeros. If she is unable to rule such a small place like Meereen, why should she be able to rule a continent like Westeros? That question triggered her decision to stay in Meereen, and so something really big must happen to change her mind to abandon the city while remaining determined to conquer yet another foreign country.

We all know that this must happen, but right now I can't imagine a scenario that would convince me.

[Miriel]

I think it's probably going too far to say that the attitudes towards slavery seen in the Ghiscari cities are not representative. That said, we see the attitudes of only some of the slavers, and other slavers may feel differently. We also do not know how many in the populace actually own slaves -- this may be the aristocratic 10% that we're looking at, and the other 90% of the free population isn't quite so blaisé about what's going on with the slaves, but have no power to stop it.

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound.

John Newton notwithstanding, I find it hard to believe we only saw the bad ones, and all the rest feel terrible about that whole slavery thing. I mean, they treated the slaves really well at Tara, so maybe that whole American Civil War thing was a bit irrelevant?

I do agree however that the bulk of the population of Slaver's Bay may feel differently than the ruling elite does. Otherwise it would be just too simple a portrait.

[AzureOwl]

Why, exactly, are they not representative of Ghis culture as a whole? Would you say Los Angeles, Kansas City, and New York are a fair representation of our American culture. If not, which three cities? Oh, by the way, since the USA is huge pop wise compared to slavers bay, how many cities would count to make an accurate demographic study?

I think a better comparison to illustrate my point would be someone judging the US from the first half of the 19th century based only on the way slaves were treated in the plantations of the Old South.

I'll admit that it's pure speculation on my part, but I find the peculiar economic reality of the Slaver's Bay region to be just too important for it not to have affected their society greatly; and that absent those conditions Ghiscari culture would be different.

Or maybe the economist in me is overestimating the effect the slave trade would have in them.

[Snowmelter]

Well, just about every culture presented in this series so far is ethnocentric, looking down their nose at other cultures. This is demonstrated repeatedly. Some go as far as considering outsiders little more than animals. I believe the Ghiscari to be in the latter group. Their cultural mindset seems to view slavery as vital to their economy (not only as trade fodder, but also as the working class) and way of life (the fighting pits). Look how much trouble Dany has had since she closed the fighting pits...all of Mereen is pissed about it, not just the top percentage of nobles. Some of the slaves tried to sell themselves back into slavery because their life would be better. In this country (the USA) we have such a hard time dealing with slavery because of our history. We seem to forget that slavery was common for thousands of years before we ever came into existence. The Greek and Roman societies were full of slaves for example. It was part of the social order and very few people objected. This is how I envision Ghis.

[mor2]

Volantis

The south-easternmost of the Free Cities, located south of the Disputed Lands and presumably on the Summer Sea rather than the Narrow. Slavery is still endemic in the city, which trades heavily with the cities of Slaver's Bay to the east. Volantis sprawls along a vast bay, so large it could contain the entirety of Braavos within it (or so it is said). This suggests that Volantis may be the largest and most populous of all the Free Cities, as well as being the oldest. Volantis maintains many of the traditions of Valyria, and during the Bleeding Years following the Doom attempted (and failed) to convince the Targaryens to aid the Volantenes in reconquering the Freehold.

Sorry for the necro but Bleeding Years?

[MostInterestingManWesteros]

Anyone possibly think that there may be more to the deserted cites danny ran into in the Red Waste than first meets the eye? Rereading CoK now, and GRRM mentions very distinctly there being purple shards of glass, in the White city they first stop in. Isn't Dragonglass purpleish? Just made me think is all!!!! Could be wrong.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Qarth is magnificent.

There was a dragon skeleton in Red Waste. I always think that Qarth was never conquered by Valyria, because of the Undying and warlocks.

I wonder so much about Yi Ti !!

Edit:

Sorry for the necro but Bleeding Years?

the wikia page.