Taxes on the Rich !~

[Ocean of Notions]

No, because every fabulously rich person got that rich with smarts and hard work, and fuck you for jealously wanting to dim the glow of these captains of industry and commerce, you fucking socialist fuck.

You know what!? This!

[Relic]

:rofl:

'captains of industry and commerce' :lmao:

I wish more people called me a 'fucking socialist fuck', it's all around closer to the truth than 'fascist' or 'commie'. 'Merkan folks in the places I've lived don't seem to know the difference between their political and economic philosophies :P

Yeah, ive been called a hippie WAY too many times, on here and in RL. I WAY MORE of a socialist fuck tho.

[Stego]

It's not JUST stupidity and the desire for comfort. I think it's because the system is pretty much water tight. You get locked into it and have very little wriggle room by the time you are in your mid/late twenties. Hell you're locked into it from birth, really.

I don't disagree, Michael. It's fucking crazy that a house takes a LIFETIME to pay for. And we are all lining up to buy them like it's a smart thing to do. Cars put us in debt. Credit Cards are pushed on us from age 18. You should see the shit they pull in Military towns when they know people have gauranteed incomes for years and they have a big brother you can complain to if they are late on payments. It's insane.

And Education? People People go into deep, deep debt to pay for it. It's absurd!

And all the while, they convince you that you need the newest thing form the mall. So you gotta work to buy a car to get to work to buy the gas to get to work to pay the credit card bills so you work so you can run up new credit card bills.

I have no debt. I might not ever be rich by any means, but I will never be in debt. Not a penny on credit. Not ever. Not a mortgage. Ever. I buy cars in cash. I may be trapped imn this system, but some games I will not play.

[Stego]

Yeah, ive been called a hippie WAY too many times, on here and in RL. I WAY MORE of a socialist fuck tho.

It's cause you always needed a haircut.

[Relic]

And Education? People People go into deep, deep debt to pay for it. It's absurd!

I have a friend who is 30 years old. At 23 he finished business school 50k in debt. He then went to get an associates in massage therapy. 85k in debt. Then three years in school for Chiropractic. 250k in debt.

My M.D. ex is at 300k.

I'm still sitting on around 45k, myself.

The difference between them is that he's trying to buy into the system. She's trying to be a Doctor Without Borders because both her parents died from terrible diseases. One person here should have her debt forgiven...

I have no debt. I might not ever be rich by any means, but I will never be in debt. Not a penny on credit. Not ever. Not a mortgage. Ever. I buy cars in cash. I may be trapped imn this system, but some games I will not play.

Well, that's awesome for you man. Smartly done. One day, over a beer or 4, i'll tell you how I've gone about attempting to not play the game. Nowhere near as wisely as you, i fear.

[Andriy Czarchenko]

Well these numbers are for 2007 but....

The top 400 households paid 16.6 percent of their income in federal individual income taxes in 2007, down from 30 percent in 1995. This decline works out to a tax cut of $46 million per filer in 2007, or a total of $18 billion in tax cuts for these households per year.

Capital gains tax @15% FTW!!!

[DanteGabriel]

My brother and I had a pretty good and interesting discussion about how it is in America when I was in the Philippines in December.

First off, my brother and I are very different. I'm arty and left-wing, and he's a Type A capitalist with rabies. The lawlessness and grab-what-you-can ethos of the privileged classes in the Philippines suits him perfectly. He's like an orca in an ocean full of slow, fat seals. The differences in outlook between us have been a constant strain in our relationship for a good 15 years or so. He likes to lecture me about how I should be living my life, and tell me things like "You need to learn that money doesn't flow from a spigot. It's a wave that you have to learn to ride." He wants me to move to the Philippines, serve an apprenticeship at one of his or our uncle's companies, and then go into business on my own with seed capital from the family. I'd rather make my own way here in the US.

What we did agree on when we had a rare, unguarded discussion over scotch on my last night in Manila was that the American system is stacked against the not-rich. That for the vast majority of Americans, the standard trip is that you work for 40 or 50 years, fighting off debt your whole life, and retire into mediocrity or uncertainty, depending on how you ordered things in the previous 40 or 50 years, and assuming some corporate shitheel didn't blow your pension fund.

The stacked deck was in full relief during this whole economic crisis. We watched the Wall Street class ride our economy off the cliff, and then beg the government for money because they were too fucking important and knowledgeable about how to ride the economy to be allowed to fail. And of course once they got the money they took care of their own swollen needs first before allowing much, if anything, to trickle down to us middle class schmucks.

I don't see a remedy to this, however. The game is getting more and more stacked against those with no capital influence, and they keep massaging the laws to secure their position.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

You know what!? This!

Screw your mild froggy rubbish.

Taxing the final .1% is really difficult btw. They tend to be slippery buggers.

[jurble]

Screw your mild froggy rubbish.

Taxing the final .1% is really difficult btw. They tend to be slippery buggers.

best.

edit: After reading the Ciaphas Cain novels, I can just imagine some Cain like Commisar in that parade. Too bad I think they were gone by this point.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

*inserts standard arguments*

*is ignored and derided by the rest of the board*

I'm not certain that the deck is stacked against the poor around here. The *rich* aren't throwing up a bunch of barriers to keep people out of their ranks that I know of. I think that the poor have come to believe that they have a right to live like they are rich. I should have a 4 bedroom 3 bathroom 2500 square foot house! I make 50000.00/year after all! It's only 250000.00! Hell, just in housing, if the "poor" would stick within their means (your kids can share a room, you don't need a swimming pool) they could shave 100000.00 off their debt from the get-go. Same with college. It doesn't need to cost 20000.00/year. It is entirely possible, and in fact, not overly difficult to get a non medical/legal degree without debt. It is possible to buy a car in cash. If you make 50000.00/year, get a Corolla instead of an Audi.

There, I have just freed up 500.00/mo or more for a post college working individual. Invest that shit, and in 20 years it will be hundreds of thousands of dollars. You can leave your kid a paid off house and a modest fortune. By the time you pass on, if he/she has followed your example, they'll have 2 houses, no debt, and a truckload of liquid cash. Your grandkids will be millionaires. How do you think the rich got rich in the first place?

*insert poster making a point about healthcare costs bankrupting the family when you get cancer, begin threadjack about healthcare*

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

best.

edit: After reading the Ciaphas Cain novels, I can just imagine some Cain like Commisar in that parade. Too bad I think they were gone by this point.

Damn, have to admit Paul Robeson owns. You win.

[Watcher]

When the Beatles wrote their song "Taxman" their tax rate was 95%.

[Insert Edit]

I don't disagree, Michael. It's fucking crazy that a house takes a LIFETIME to pay for. And we are all lining up to buy them like it's a smart thing to do. Cars put us in debt. Credit Cards are pushed on us from age 18. You should see the shit they pull in Military towns when they know people have gauranteed incomes for years and they have a big brother you can complain to if they are late on payments. It's insane.

And Education? People People go into deep, deep debt to pay for it. It's absurd!

And all the while, they convince you that you need the newest thing form the mall. So you gotta work to buy a car to get to work to buy the gas to get to work to pay the credit card bills so you work so you can run up new credit card bills.

I have no debt. I might not ever be rich by any means, but I will never be in debt. Not a penny on credit. Not ever. Not a mortgage. Ever. I buy cars in cash. I may be trapped imn this system, but some games I will not play.

I agree with most of this except the house. I'm paying over $1100 a month for rent and utilities for a BASEMENT SUITE. Biggest mistake I EVER made financially was selling my house in '99.

[Shryke]

It's not JUST stupidity and the desire for comfort. I think it's because the system is pretty much water tight. You get locked into it and have very little wriggle room by the time you are in your mid/late twenties. Hell you're locked into it from birth, really.

Who's vagina you popped out of is pretty much the largest indicator of your future place in society.

[Eponine]

*insert poster making a point about healthcare costs bankrupting the family when you get cancer, begin threadjack about healthcare*

Well that's the thing. Not about healthcare specifically, but it's harder to pay taxes when you don't have confidence that your tax money is being used in a productive way. I know that no government is going to be 100% efficient, but if you feel that money designated to healthcare is being managed poorly and your road isn't plowed and the roof of your local high school caved in... it's hard to not start thinking that the government shouldn't get that money.

I'm sure a lot of people would still complain if everything were run wonderfully and everyone had a quality education, free healthcare, and smooth highways, but I'd like to see the 33ish% of my salary that I already pay in taxes be used in a better way before I'm going to say that I'm ok with being taxed even more.

[Shryke]

*inserts standard arguments*

*is ignored and derided by the rest of the board*

I'm not certain that the deck is stacked against the poor around here. The *rich* aren't throwing up a bunch of barriers to keep people out of their ranks that I know of. I think that the poor have come to believe that they have a right to live like they are rich. I should have a 4 bedroom 3 bathroom 2500 square foot house! I make 50000.00/year after all! It's only 250000.00! Hell, just in housing, if the "poor" would stick within their means (your kids can share a room, you don't need a swimming pool) they could shave 100000.00 off their debt from the get-go. Same with college. It doesn't need to cost 20000.00/year. It is entirely possible, and in fact, not overly difficult to get a non medical/legal degree without debt. It is possible to buy a car in cash. If you make 50000.00/year, get a Corolla instead of an Audi.

There, I have just freed up 500.00/mo or more for a post college working individual. Invest that shit, and in 20 years it will be hundreds of thousands of dollars. You can leave your kid a paid off house and a modest fortune. By the time you pass on, if he/she has followed your example, they'll have 2 houses, no debt, and a truckload of liquid cash. Your grandkids will be millionaires. How do you think the rich got rich in the first place?

*insert poster making a point about healthcare costs bankrupting the family when you get cancer, begin threadjack about healthcare*

Actually, there are major obstacles to the poor. Specifically, there's a poverty trap. Or poverty wall if you would.

Here's a good graph for ya: http://trueslant.com/megancottrell/files/2009/11/Picture-2.png

(Specifically applies to Virginia, but the concept is the same)

What this graph shows is how much your job says you are making vs how much you actually bring home. And this is after taxes, subsidies and all that bullshit.

The first thing you will notice is that said graph is not smooth.

And if you stop and really think about that, you will realise how utterly fucked up that is.

You can be "making more", but actually making less.

Those dips in the line are the poverty trap. It's tough to leap them and if you can't, you are trapped.

Beyond that, tax cuts for the rich and general Reaganesque economic policies have left the middle class pretty fucked these days.

If the Rich aren't paying for it, who do you think is after all?

[Jaime L]

I'm sure a lot of people would still complain if everything were run wonderfully and everyone had a quality education, free healthcare, and smooth highways, but I'd like to see the 33ish% of my salary that I already pay in taxes be used in a better way before I'm going to say that I'm ok with being taxed even more.

But that's just it, you're not being taxed that high. Unless you're crazy wealthy, Ep. Even including SS/Medicare/State taxes I would be highly doubtful if your ETR were higher than 20-25% once you factor in all the deductions/exemptions/credits you're alloted. Not to mention the first $80k you make is never taxed higher than 25%, and nearly half of that is taxed at 15% or below. Mine, for example, was closer to 15% last year.

[dolorouseddwasright]

I think people wouldn't be as upset about taxes if the taxes met two basic criteria.

1. Fairly applied

2. Monies used in an effective/useful manner

Unfortunately, the government fails to meet those criteria. We all can come up with stories of wasteful government spending. And nobody seems to agree on how to apply taxes fairly. I think it would be more fair for each person to pay the same percentage of their income than to have graduated tax rates. That way somebody who makes $1 million a year is paying more than somebody that makes $25 thousand a year, but they are both paying the same percentage. The millionare can't complain because the tax is equally applied, and the lower earner (read poor) has to admit that the rich guy is paying more. Of course, we would need to eliminate all deductions to accomplish this. And that would put tax lawyers and accountants out of work, hurting the economy....

Aw hell, the system is totally f*cked. There is no solution that will make everybody happy. And it doesn't help that the politicians use taxes to get themselves elected. Taxes should be used to fund the legitimate functions of government but they get used as a tool for social policy. It's disgusting.

[Insert Edit]

Taxes should be used to fund the legitimate functions of government but they get used as a tool for social policy. It's disgusting.

Social policy isn't a legit function of government? Who should social policy be set by?

[Andriy Czarchenko]

Unfortunately, the government fails to meet those criteria. We all can come up with stories of wasteful government spending. And nobody seems to agree on how to apply taxes fairly. I think it would be more fair for each person to pay the same percentage of their income than to have graduated tax rates. That way somebody who makes $1 million a year is paying more than somebody that makes $25 thousand a year, but they are both paying the same percentage. The millionare can't complain because the tax is equally applied, and the lower earner (read poor) has to admit that the rich guy is paying more. Of course, we would need to eliminate all deductions to accomplish this. And that would put tax lawyers and accountants out of work, hurting the economy....

O god, flat tax advocate. :stillsick: