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Anti-feminist anger, p2


Lady Blackfish

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Since cannabis has a long biological half-life (is this correct? I want to say that it stays long in your body), and since they are heavy users, that means that they are never completely free of its influence and thus never able to consent with a really clear mind.

Are you implying that THC has a half-life of years? No, no that's not right at all. Cannabis might linger for a week or two, but the only reason it's still in their bodies for a long period of time is because they smoke it constantly; the half-life itself is not especially long.

But I probably just misread that post. :D

There is a point in which a person is too intoxicated to consent. I think it would be foolish for anyone to deny that. I just do not know how to draw the line in such a way that it would not be casually ignored by large segments of the population and thus impossible to enforce.

I think the government can decide on a case-by-case basis. Not every drunk person who has sex is raped, but some are. Instead of creating an arbitrary BAC Limit, why not create it for each individual based on their testimony and other evidence?

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Re: Tempra

Yes, there is absolutely a point where no reasonable person can deny that consent cannot be give. However, most people (from what I see) don't reach that level when they drink. They are in a blurry middle area where most people are tipsy and giddy and are all too willing to get it on with the right person.

But how do you (generic you) know which part of the inebriation curve the other person is at?

You don't.

Some people may look like they're not three-sheets-to-the-wind, but they are. Others may appear they're fallen-down drunk, but they still have enough sense in them. There simply is no way for anyone else to tell.

So, if a person wishes to avoid the risk of being charged with rape, she/he should cease initiating sex with people who have been drinking more than is acceptable for DUI level.

Re: Mad Monkey

I think the government can decide on a case-by-case basis. Not every drunk person who has sex is raped, but some are. Instead of creating an arbitrary BAC Limit, why not create it for each individual based on their testimony and other evidence?

Will you apply the same reasoning to, say, age of consent, or DUI? Let us judge each case individually, since individuals are different?

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So, if a person wishes to avoid the risk of being charged with rape, she/he should cease initiating sex with people who have been drinking more than is acceptable for DUI level.

DUI level for me is about two glasses of wine (if not one; I haven't taken any tests). For some people, one glass of wine would put them over DUI level since bodies process it differently depending on metabolism, weight, height, and other such things. So you are basically suggesting that either people begin to ask sex partners to take a blood alcohol test or refrain from sleeping with anyone who has had anything to drink, at all.

DUI level is based on when your reactions become impaired and has nothing to do with when your ability to think rationally becomes impaired.

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Will you apply the same reasoning to, say, age of consent, or DUI? Let us judge each case individually, since individuals are different?

We kind of do do that with DUI. Let's say someone is over the limit but somehow manages to drive from the office party to his house. A cop probably wouldn't pull him over and he would never get charged. But someone with a lesser BAC who rams into a bus full of nuns is probably getting the hammer even if the BAC was slightly below the limit.

Age of consent, I dunno. Considering how difficult it is to get adult women to go against their abusers in domestic violence cases, I'm not sure I want to create a heavier burden for children.

My problem with trying to use the BAC is that it's impossible to measure in most cases since these alcohol-related rape cases are often reported long after (sometimes years after) the incident. The government has its hands tied behind its back from the day one (I mean, even more so than usual); their evidence will have long vanished. I get what you're trying to say, but it seems completely unworkable except in rare occasions when someone can drop by to measure blood alcohol content just in case.

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We kind of do do that with DUI. Let's say someone is over the limit but somehow manages to drive from the office party to his house. A cop probably wouldn't pull him over and he would never get charged. But someone with a lesser BAC who rams into a bus full of nuns is probably getting the hammer even if the BAC was slightly below the limit.

Say what?

The reason why someone with a BAC over the legal limit not getting prosecuted is not because the law is applied differently to different individuals, but because s/he never got caught. Some murderers go free, others are caught. This does not mean that the definition of murder varies according to individuals.

If someone were stopped at roadblock aimed at catching a fugitive, and the police smelled alcohol in their breath, and made them take a breathylizer, and they blew 0.091, they would be getting a DUI, even if they did not violate any traffic rules.

If someone had ploughed their car into a bus full of nuns and killed them all, s/he would be charged with appropriate traffic violations (failure to stop at stop sign, speeding, etc), but they would not be charged for DUI if they were below the BAC limit.

My problem with trying to use the BAC is that it's impossible to measure in most cases since these alcohol-related rape cases are often reported long after (sometimes years after) the incident. The government has its hands tied behind its back from the day one (I mean, even more so than usual); their evidence will have long vanished. I get what you're trying to say, but it seems completely unworkable except in rare occasions when someone can drop by to measure blood alcohol content just in case.

Every line we draw will be arbitrary. The same is true for the other laws. The two alternatives are, as far as I can see: 1 - the degree of intoxication does not invalidate consent or 2 - a single drop of alcohol (or mind-altering drugs) will invalidate any consent.

But I'm open to suggestions on what other lines do we draw, if not sobriety tests such as BAC level, which is objective and quantifiable.

Put it more on a more personal level, if you meet someone for the first time at a bar, and you want to hook up, how drunk will the other person has to be before you refuse the offer? How will you tell how drunk the other person is? If, the next morning, the other person wakes up and claims that s/he had never given consent, what would you do?

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DUI level for me is about two glasses of wine (if not one; I haven't taken any tests). For some people, one glass of wine would put them over DUI level since bodies process it differently depending on metabolism, weight, height, and other such things. So you are basically suggesting that either people begin to ask sex partners to take a blood alcohol test or refrain from sleeping with anyone who has had anything to drink, at all.

DUI level is based on when your reactions become impaired and has nothing to do with when your ability to think rationally becomes impaired.

The only solution is sober sex. God help us all.

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You're right, weird name person; that BAC thing was a really crappy example. I am sorry for wasting your time with it.

Every line we draw will be arbitrary. The same is true for the other laws. The two alternatives are, as far as I can see: 1 - the degree of intoxication does not invalidate consent or 2 - a single drop of alcohol (or mind-altering drugs) will invalidate any consent.

My problem will be trying to prove what the victim's BAC was weeks, months, or years after the rape. Unlike age, I can't think of a way to prove that definitely after a certain point. A BAC test is great if the victim reports in time and if it can be conducted in time so that it is available to the government at trial. To my knowledge, that rarely happens. In fact, some states allow officers to conduct tests during DUI cases without a search warrant in certain circumstances because the metabolic process of the body disposes of alcohol faster than the police can apply to a magistrate. If it's a time crunch doing it when you have the subject in custody, how is the government supposed to get this evidence long afterwards?

Put it more on a more personal level, if you meet someone for the first time at a bar, and you want to hook up, how drunk will the other person has to be before you refuse the offer? How will you tell how drunk the other person is?

You can observe their mannerisms. I won't conduct a blood alcohol test.

If, the next morning, the other person wakes up and claims that s/he had never given consent, what would you do?

Try to work things out or get a lawyer? Really, there's nothing else you can do if someone is determined to accuse you of something like that, regardless of the actual law.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Re: Tempra

But how do you (generic you) know which part of the inebriation curve the other person is at?

You don't.

Some people may look like they're not three-sheets-to-the-wind, but they are. Others may appear they're fallen-down drunk, but they still have enough sense in them. There simply is no way for anyone else to tell.

So, if a person wishes to avoid the risk of being charged with rape, she/he should cease initiating sex with people who have been drinking more than is acceptable for DUI level.

I would say that this is true when one person is sober and one person is drunk. But when both people are drunk and they BOTH decide to bump genitals together, neither should be charged with rape. It's quite silly to think that one drunk participant can regret their actions and completely ruin the other's life when both are equally guilty for the actions performed the night before. If having drunk sex was a crime then more than half the people on this board, both male and female are rapists.

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