Why Tyrion?

[Lannister_Lion]

The chain was meant to keep them in, not keep them out. The fleet that didn't go in was left in the bay as precaution by Stannis' commanders.

Sorry I should have explained more;

The Chain coupled with Wildfire destroyed Stannis fleet. (and a great deal of his foot and horse too)

Without that Kings Landing was badly lost.

The Chain and Wildfire were orchestrated by alone Tyrion himself (against the orders of the Queen regent and King)

Though his greatest stuff is helping Bran, killing Tywin and Shae, befriending Jon and honestly advising him and not to mention that he loves Myrcella and Tommen and throughout all the books tries very hard to protect those he can.

Cat being accosted in the Mountains of the Moon? He foregoes his escape to protect her, and her being his captor!?

Whats not to like?

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Sorry I should have explained more;

The Chain coupled with Wildfire destroyed Stannis fleet. (and a great deal of his foot and horse too)

Without that Kings Landing was badly lost.

The Chain and Wildfire were orchestrated by alone Tyrion himself (against the orders of the Queen regent and King)

Though his greatest stuff is helping Bran, killing Tywin and Shae, befriending Jon and honestly advising him and not to mention that he loves Myrcella and Tommen and throughout all the books tries very hard to protect those he can.

Cat being accosted in the Mountains of the Moon? He foregoes his escape to protect her, and her being his captor!?

Whats not to like?

I don't find murdering your ex-girlfriend in a fit of jealous rage to be particularly endearing I'm afraid! :rolleyes:

People have listed a lot of things he's done/ways he acts they don't like and yet you keep saying "What's not to like?" every post... If you don't want to hear the answer, stop asking the question.

[Lannister_Lion]

I don't find murdering your ex-girlfriend in a fit of jealous rage to be particularly endearing I'm afraid! :rolleyes:

People have listed a lot of things he's done/ways he acts they don't like and yet you keep saying "What's not to like?" every post... If you don't want to hear the answer, stop asking the question.

It was a rhetorical question.

(I asked once! Not every post, get your facts right)

That means I was asking myself.

I would have happily strangled some of my ex girlfriends.

Hey you dont like the character, good for you! I like the character, good for me!

You can read between the lines on that, right?

Oh and just for shitsandgiggles;

If the character GRRM likens most to himself is Tyrion, who do you think the most heroic and endearing character will be come the series end.

Cant wait for the outcry to that

[Easy]

Though his greatest stuff is helping Bran, killing Tywin and Shae, befriending Jon and honestly advising him and not to mention that he loves Myrcella and Tommen and throughout all the books tries very hard to protect those he can.

Cat being accosted in the Mountains of the Moon? He foregoes his escape to protect her, and her being his captor!

Add to that, saving Sansa from a bloody beating at the hands of Joffrey, trying to protect her from the gory details of the Red Wedding, giving her her right to refuse him knowing that she was forced into the marriage.

And most importantly for me are the words of Maester Aemon, one of the wisest people if not the wisest person in all of Westeros. A man who in blindness perceives more than most seeing men. He called Tyrion a giant amongst men. High praise indeed.

[Lannister_Lion]

Just for the record;

His girlfriend" had just lied (under oath) to have him convicted of King and Kin slaying, then screwed his Dad before he was even dead, I guess you would see a shrink about that and try to work it out together, huh.

(that was rhetorical, you dont need to answer)

[Lannister_Lion]

Add to that, saving Sansa from a bloody beating at the hands of Joffrey, trying to protect her from the gory details of the Red Wedding, giving her her right to refuse him knowing that she was forced into the marriage.

And most importantly for me are the words of Maester Aemon, one of the wisest people if not the wisest person in all of Westeros. A man who in blindness perceives more than most seeing men. He called Tyrion a giant amongst men. High praise indeed.

Thank the Old Gods and New.

I thought I was fighting alone here!

[Ahmrogar]

Wow sorry for being so late to reply guys, most of the time peoplke ignore my posts :rolleyes:

If Tyrion believed that Tysha was willing, then why is he ashamed when describing what happened? (I don't have Book 1 on me, but I believe he says something along the lines of "Gods help me, I did [her].") Does anyone have the exact quote?

His being ashamed indicates to me that A. he knew he was doing something wrong, and B. he knew that it wasn't consensual.

That's one way of taking it. I am not going to say you're wrong (because we have no evidence of that) but I don't think that makes as much sense.

Even if Tysha was a whore, and she did agree to it though, can you imagine Tyrion actually being proud of it?

Let's say for a moment that if Jaime actually did find a virgin whore, Tysha, for him, Tyrion had his experience but the plan went wrong and he fell in love with her, and married her. A Lannister marrying a commoner? Tywin found out and was enraged and wanted to teach him a lesson; that whores will do anything for gold, including service his entire garrison. It also doubles as a kick in the guts to his dwarf son he hates/views as a shame to his house. In any case, if a whore could service a garrison, they could surely marry a dwarf for his money. By the end of it Tyrion was probably feeling sick, betrayed, heart broken and humiliated and to have him go again after them all...Well, it makes perfect sense why it'd both make his eyes water and why he'd feel bad, and why he'd hate his father.

Unpick this for me. There are two beliefs here:

1. Tysha is a whore.

2. Tysha was raped by the guards.

Are you suggesting that these beliefs are contradictory? That there's no way Tyrion could believe both? Isn't that rather close to suggesting that whores can't be raped, or at least ascribing that belief to Tyrion?

Firstly, no. No I am not at all saying nor implying that whores can not be raped and what I said is not to be taken as such. As to attributing that to Tyrion, that was not my intention. I'm not sure how Westerosi culture holds with the raping of whores, as the only viable other story was Gregor...and he's a monster.

I am, however, saying that if whores agree to gangbangs it doesn't count as a rape.

Basically I am saying that IF Tyrion believed Tysha was a whore (which I don't think anyone seriously wants to debate...?) then why wouldn't he believe it was consensual? I think he would have recalled if she cried out or was crying or screaming or trying to resist. If, as you say, she was a thirteen year old girl who just lay there. Then also, why would Tyrion think THIS was rape? He knows she was a virgin when he found her, so regardless of whether she was willing or not the experience is probably painful and she's not actually experienced.

If you want to know why she did it/did not try to run fight or whatever, well she was a commoner in the castle of the highest nobility in the realm with the most feared (and maybe most powerful) noble. We don't know all the details, as I previously said, maybe Tywin threatened her if she let Tyrion know. Maybe Tyrion was too cut up to pay attention to the details. Whatever.

Just to counter some points, I am not saying Tysha wasn't raped or that you can't rape a prostitute or any of that. I am just saying there doesn't seem to be any basis to believe that Tyrion thought it was rape.

Basically any situation, within reason, that you want to put out as a reason why Tyrion ought to know it was rape easily has another explanation that might make sense to Tyrion.

It is a very distasteful subject.

I'm pretty sure the raping of minors is probably one of the most distasteful subjects I can think of.

But we are talking about a 13 year old girl vs a squad of professional soldiers. They would not need to use much force. And the statistics indicate that she would stop resisting and just lie there pretty quickly.

Indeed, and see my above reasoning for why this would not clue Tyrion in.

There are whores and whores. Even if she had been a whore, her sexual experience would have been limited to a fortnight as Tyrion's mistress. A very different business to agreeing to a gang bang. Entirely probable she would have been unwilling even if Jaime's story had been true. Especially as the whole business was designed to punish her as well as Tyrion.

I will agree to this. It's a possibility.

I suppose it depends on if you see it as punishment or a lesson, I always thought Tywin was teaching Tyrion a cruel lesson as opposed to actually trying to punish them both. Especially since after the raping is done he doesn't really give a damn where Tysha goes.

On the other hand, a silver is apparently a pretty high price. Especially for a commoner.

Yes, I'm sorry. That is one instance where Tyrion is critisized for being an ugly dwarf who would not look good on the back of a dragon. Yikes. :rolleyes: Besides that rather ridiculous comment, thought, I can't recall anyone using Tyrion's dwafism as a justification for disliking him. I have, however, heard countless people citing this fact to justify every single bad deed he's ever committed. And every one of his negative qualities.

Hi ^_^ I feel we got off on the wrong foot, Myr, I'm Ahm a pleasure to meet you and I hope we can debate this soundly!

Ready? Okay, let's go!

As to this issue, I was more getting at the fact that at least the OP seemed to hate Tyrion sheerly because he was an 'ugly dwarf' as opposed to an actually disagreement with his character, especially as he's rather wrong in some of his assessments. I feel I'm seen posts to his like as well, but I've been lurking a lot longer than I've been posting so finding them would be hard, and probably not really worth the effort.

But she clearly did not agree to it; this is clear from Tyrion's description of the event. "By the time they were done, the coins were running out of her hands" etc.

He says (from my paperback GoT) p.458 Tyrion:

...After Jaime had made his confession, to drive home the lesson, Lord Tywin brought my wife in and gave her to his guards. They paid her fair enough. A silver for each man, how many whores command that high a price?... and at the end she had so many silvers the coins were slipping through her fingers and rolling on the floor, she..."

The 'she...' combined with the next part, about the stinging of the eyes, I suppose, lends credence to your idea. But I always took it to me of a bitter reflection on Tyrion's behalf, that every man had a go and she'd taken all their coin.

Another note, I figure that if Tyrion knew she was raped. Even if she was a whore, he'd have sought her out and tried to hand onto her...or something. We've seen from that point on he had no problem with whores.

Then again, I guess he was a kid in the Rock...maybe he was scared :(

Also-- who in god's name would want to be screwed by a barracks full of soldiers? I'd say a sex worker would be especially unlikely to want that...think of the trauma to the mind and body.

Supply and demand. If the price is right.

I mean, even today, we have people who do some *very weird* stuff for money.

Honestly, it would be easy for Tyrion to determine whether or not Tysha was willing from her body language and actions while the event was taking place. There's also the fact that he, as he thinks to himself, "took her myself afterwards." And by his own admission, he did not sleep with her under duress. He himself said that "I hadn't intended to take her, but cock did not cooperate," or something like that.

I've covered this above. We either have a lack of evidence or, as I see it, grounds for explanation of her behaviour.

When, exactly? All he says to Bronn is that Tywin made him go last, and give her a cold coin because Lannisters are worth more.

No doubt. And what he did to Tyrion was clearly child abuse. However, there have been no indications thus far that Tyrion was forced into raping Tysha. (Indeed, if Tyrion did the deed after being threatened by Tywin, or if he was honestly led to believe that he would be harmed if he didn't do it, then I'd say that Tyrion was not only not a rapist, but that he was raped as surely as Tysha was.) However, I got every indication from Tyrion's several recounts of the incident that Tywin basically said, "your turn," and Tyrion preceded to screw Tysha. Which was rape.

A question.

So Tyrion is a rapists only if Tywin explicitly threatens him? What if he threatened Tysha, or what if by a pattern of past behaviour Tyrion could surmise that things could happen (such as harm to him or others) if he did not comply with Tywin?

[Drogon 72]

Not liking a character is one thing. Everyone has different personalities and therefore will like different characters. Me personally, I love the Starks as a family and dislike the Lannisters, although I do like Tyrions chapters a hell of a lot. His chapters are very well written and it seems to me that he is very smart and cunning. If you are going to start a thread bashing a character, you might want to have some facts to support your argument. Saying that he was a bad hand and listing the reasons you did..well..they are just wrong(as pointed out by someone already). It sounds like you are just dwarf bashing. I bet you really hated Gimli. Like him or not, Tyrion is here to stay and is going to be playing a big part in the upcoming books.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I would have happily strangled some of my ex girlfriends.

Wow, that is extremely disturbing!

Hey you dont like the character, good for you! I like the character, good for me!

But I do like Tyrion, and said as much in the post you were replying to. However I said he has many unlikable qualities, especially evident while he is The Hand of The King in aCoK.

Oh and just for shitsandgiggles;

If the character GRRM likens most to himself is Tyrion, who do you think the most heroic and endearing character will be come the series end.

Cant wait for the outcry to that

It's possible, and I wouldn't mind. Equally possible he will take darker path. I think GRRM is a better writer than to create a self-inserted version of himself who saves the day singlehandedly.

[mormont]

Oh and just for shitsandgiggles;

If the character GRRM likens most to himself is Tyrion, who do you think the most heroic and endearing character will be come the series end.

Cant wait for the outcry to that

I've heard this view and variations of it before: that GRRM sees some similarities between himself and Tyrion and that this must logically mean that Tyrion is a hero/will wind up victorious/is an avatar of the author/is meant to be seen as awesome. It always puzzles and saddens me. Do people think ASOIAF is nothing more than a well-written fanfic, complete with authorial Gary Stu?

No. Tyrion is a deeply flawed character who has done some very unpleasant things, often for unpleasant reasons. And GRRM wrote him that way - on purpose. He empathises with Tyrion: but that's not the same as saying he is Tyrion, or even that he would therefore write Tyrion as a good guy. Sticking only to his character traits, Tyrion is at various times shown as insecure, jealous, foolish, spiteful, ruthless, and cruel. I'm quite sceptical about the view that he'll wind up on the side of the angels, let alone 'the most heroic and endearing character'.

I suppose it depends on if you see it as punishment or a lesson, I always thought Tywin was teaching Tyrion a cruel lesson as opposed to actually trying to punish them both. Especially since after the raping is done he doesn't really give a damn where Tysha goes.

Actually, I believe it was both. In fact I don't think there's any serious doubt that it was both. The logical corollary of it not being intended also as a punishment, is that Tywin didn't think that Tysha should be punished. And that's absolutely unbelievable to me: it runs against everything we know about him.

[Xenophon]

It's possible, and I wouldn't mind. Equally possible he will take darker path. I think GRRM is a better writer than to create a self-inserted version of himself who saves the day singlehandedly.

Yeah, if anything, I think GRRM's semi-identification with Tyrion makes it less likely that he'll be the big hero at the end. A skilled writer like GRRM is certainly aware that heroic author avatars rarely work, and so far I've seen no signs that he's egotistical enough to say, "screw it, this book is going to be about me and how I awesome I am".

[Easy]

Thank the Old Gods and New.

I thought I was fighting alone here!

You're not alone. Tyrion remains the most popular character in the series... but haters gonna hate.

Personally, I think it reflects well on GRRM that his characters can divide opinion so much. They're very realistically flawed. So real that a reader's own life experiences and philosophy can colour what they think of a particular character.

But still, Tyrion is awesome.

[Lannister_Lion]

From what GRRM says his Tyrion PoV chapters write themselves, as I said though Tyrion is the character he most likens himself too - not that is who he is.

So I guess we both like Tyrion. But disagree on his ability as Hand of the King.

I wonder how many Hands would survive if their lover lied about their supposed Kinslaying and Regicide?

Me? I dont think any lesser Hand would still be living (Littlefinger included) if they had to survive that kinda betrayal.

You also stated that he moaned no-one was gratified he saved their city, and that annoyed you, is that right?

I still think he shoulda left that cesspool for Stannis, I was bitter with resentment and I was only reading it!

If you dont like the way he behaved at Court, maybe look at the nobility frequenting the place?

Its not like he had any choice.

[Lannister_Lion]

I've heard this view and variations of it before: that GRRM sees some similarities between himself and Tyrion and that this must logically mean that Tyrion is a hero/will wind up victorious/is an avatar of the author/is meant to be seen as awesome. It always puzzles and saddens me. Do people think ASOIAF is nothing more than a well-written fanfic, complete with authorial Gary Stu?

No. Tyrion is a deeply flawed character who has done some very unpleasant things, often for unpleasant reasons. And GRRM wrote him that way - on purpose. He empathises with Tyrion: but that's not the same as saying he is Tyrion, or even that he would therefore write Tyrion as a good guy. Sticking only to his character traits, Tyrion is at various times shown as insecure, jealous, foolish, spiteful, ruthless, and cruel. I'm quite sceptical about the view that he'll wind up on the side of the angels, let alone 'the most heroic and endearing character'.

Actually, I believe it was both. In fact I don't think there's any serious doubt that it was both. The logical corollary of it not being intended also as a punishment, is that Tywin didn't think that Tysha should be punished. And that's absolutely unbelievable to me: it runs against everything we know about him.

1 - we all display these emotions, its what makes us human and the books so damned good.

2 - I never said the MOST endearing and heroic, but definitely one of - heck IMO he already is

[Lannister_Lion]

You're not alone. Tyrion remains the most popular character in the series... but haters gonna hate.

Personally, I think it reflects well on GRRM that his characters can divide opinion so much. They're very realistically flawed. So real that a reader's own life experiences and philosophy can colour what they think of a particular character.

But still, Tyrion is awesome.

Cheers and I completely agree with your earlier statement;

If you dont like Tyrion, argue it with Maester Aemon.

Defintely a top 5 character, but for me - so is Jaime and for the very same reasons you stated; he is realisticly flawed.

[Easy]

Cheers

Defintely a top 5 character, but for me - so is Jaime and for the very same reasons you stated; he is realisticly flawed.

I like Jaime now but only because of his rehabilitation.

I've always liked seeing people rectifying themselves and I'm keen to see how far his rehabilitation goes. I suppose it's another example of my personal experiences and philosophy colouring my view of a character.

[lynxx]

Let's look at what happened while he was Hand...

1. His King died.

2. He was accused of treason.

3. I haven't done a reread in a while, but I know there were many more problems.

I'm just saying he's and ugly dwarf no one should take him seriously, his cunning abilities rival Hodor. He's not the kind of guy anyone would make Hand ...

1., 2., 3., gee whiz the same things happened to Eddard while he was Hand.

Tywin made him Hand pro tem. Tywin was too busy waging the war against the Young Wolf to hang out at King's Landing. Tyrion's defense strategies were quite inventive -- the alchemists' dragonfire, and the chain for the harbor -- kind of like Regan's so-called Star Wars beam system.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

1., 2., 3., gee whiz the same things happened to Eddard while he was Hand.

Well sure - but a lot of posters are making the point that Tyrion was a wildly successful hand, something that no one has ever (to my knowledge) argued with regard to poor Ned!

(However, Joff didn't die while Tyrion was Hand - Tywin was by that point).

[Easy]

(However, Joff didn't die while Tyrion was Hand - Tywin was by that point).

He also wasn't Hand when he was accused of treason so perhaps Heal would like to revise that list lol.

Tyrion didn't have enough time in job to be declared a raving success or a failure. However, he did have some clear successes. He's a mover and a shaker and gets things done. He can also manouevre within the intrigues of court, has political knowledge and a bit of diplomtic savvy. imo he would have been a successful Hand given time.