Apartheid in Arizona

[tzanth]

So apparently it is now a crime to have brown skin in Arizona. Two questions:

1. How could this possibly be constitutional?

2. How the hell did this happen? What type of evil monster could support something so blatantly based on racial hate? Didn't these people learn about the holocaust when they were in school? About the recent history of South Africa? This makes me sick. :stillsick:

[jurble]

Brb, selling skin lightening creams in Arizona.

[ztemhead]

So apparently it is now a crimeto have brown skin in Arizona. Two questions:

1. How could this possibly be constitutional?

2. How the hell did this happen? What type of evil monster could support something so blatantly based on racial hate? Didn't these people learn about the holocaust when they were in school? About the recent history of South Africa? This makes me sick. :stillsick:

take the second thing first. The the legislature here is made up of a bunch of idiots earning $24000 per year. The person bagging groceries at Whole Foods is paid better than they are. They are incapable of passing a balanced budget, so instead they are passing all these moronic measures that theoretically don't cost anything, but please somebody, somewhere in the state. For a few years the early kabosh was put on these bills by our Democratic Governor Janet Napolitano who's threatened veto was enough to kill them in their infancy, but Obama went and yanked her to Washington, and her replacement is both from the other party, as well as a babbling idiot.

I'm curious what the libertarians think of the requirement that you now need to carry ID with you or else you could be deported. Requiring ID is one of those big, bad limitations on freedom that traditional libertarians loathe.

As for the first question, it's clearly not constitutional and won't stand judicial review. But of course, some poor bastard has to be racially profiled and arrested for DWB (driving while brown) before the law can be overturned. It's the new game we play in America, pass whatever law you want and worry about whether it's constitutional later. Of course taking the case to court will cost a few million bucks that the state doesn't have.

by the way, this comes hot on the heels of another recently passed law that makes it legal to carry your firearm on your person at all times. So racially-motivated traffic stops? Good luck with those.

last thought: there's always been a fair bit of disention among the municipalities about immigration enforcement, so just as Arizona is pushing the fed, I'd expect certain cities and counties to wipe their collective asses with this law, and tell the state to go ahead and sue them.

[Tempra]

You're being a bit melodramatic with that comparison.

It is not a crime to have brown skin. Millions of brown skinned individuals will not be made criminals by this law.

It is, however, a crime to be an illegal immigrant.

With that said, there will be a lot of racial profiling going on.

[Eurytus]

I must be missing something unless that article is missing some key facts.

It says the bill

1. makes it a crime under state law to be in the country illegally.

2. It also requires local police officers to question people about their immigration status if there is reason to suspect they are illegal immigrants

3. allows lawsuits against government agencies that hinder enforcement of immigration laws

4. and makes it illegal to hire illegal immigrants for day labor or knowingly transport them.

I can't see what the problem would be with 1, 3 and 4. So that leaves 2.

But lets cut it with the hyperbole.

It doesn't make it a crime to "have brown skin". Unless increased chance of being questioned leads directly to a criminal record. Nor am I sure how this is Apartheid.

[ztemhead]

Eurytus and Tempra, you two are lacking a decade's worth of experience living here, and so aren't able to see exactly what this bill is going to do to the state.

If anything, people aren't being hysterical enough.

[Alexia]

Okay, I'm going to respond to a major misconception. Not all Hispanics have brown skin. I do not have brown skin; neither does my husband. I work in an office of about 13 staff members, counting our part-timers. One is non-Hispanic. Two have brown skin.

Latin America and the Caribbean are very racially and ethnically diverse.

2. It also requires local police officers to question people about their immigration status if there is reason to suspect they are illegal immigrants

4. and makes it illegal to hire illegal immigrants for day labor or knowingly transport them.

These are the two that worry me. I have a very Spanish name and was born here. My father was born in Puerto Rico and speaks with an accent, as do most of my aunts, uncles, and cousins. All of us would be outraged to have our "immigration status" questioned on that basis. So what consists of reason to suspect people are here illegally?

For #4, is it to knowingly hire or just to hire? Is one required to inquire about immigration status before hiring?

[Tempra]

Eurytus and Tempra, you two are lacking a decade's worth of experience living here, and so aren't able to see exactly what this bill is going to do to the state.

If anything, people aren't being hysterical enough.

So you believe that race segregated housing, bathrooms, schooling, buses, and race-based disenfranchisement is right around the corner because of this bill? It is going to suck bad to be latino in Arizona. No doubt. It may even spark race-based violence, but this bill hardly ushers in "apartheid."

[Week]

Okay, I'm going to respond to a major misconception. Not all Hispanics have brown skin. I do not have brown skin; neither does my husband. I work in an office of about 13 staff members, counting our part-timers. One is non-Hispanic. Two have brown skin.

Where was it ever said that all Hispanics have brown skin? That is not the issue. How many Caucasians have brown skin? That is the issue.

[Alexia]

Where was it ever said that all Hispanics have brown skin? That is not the issue. How many Caucasians have brown skin? That is the issue.

I'm afraid I don't follow what you mean. The bill appears to target Hispanics. What does skin color have to do with anything?

[Tempra]

For #4, is it to knowingly hire or just to hire? Is one required to inquire about immigration status before hiring?

All employers have to verify that an individual is eligible to work in the US under the Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA).

[ztemhead]

Okay, I'm going to respond to a major misconception. Not all Hispanics have brown skin. I do not have brown skin; neither does my husband. I work in an office of about 13 staff members, counting our part-timers. One is non-Hispanic. Two have brown skin.

true enough, but we don't get that many Puerto Ricans hereabouts. I'm also aware that there's plenty of Mexico City natives who are blonde/ blue eyed, or at least that's what Telemundo! tells me. (they also have AMAZING clevage, who knew?) Not so many in West Phoenix.

So you believe that race segregated housing, bathrooms, schooling, buses, and race-based disenfranchisement is right around the corner because of this bill? It is going to suck bad to be latino in Arizona. No doubt. It may even spark race-based violence, but this bill hardly ushers in "apartheid."

if ever this law was enforced as written, yeah the undocumented immigrant community would become extremely insular. Granted, "apartheid" is an overstatement.

[Week]

I'm afraid I don't follow what you mean. The bill appears to target Hispanics. What does skin color have to do with anything?

Exactly. I suppose I didn't see the purpose in pointing out that there are light-skinned Hispanics in relation to the bill. Particularly when nobody made an assertion to the contrary.

Anyways, regarding the bill, AZ joins South Carolina, Virginia, and others as the most embarrassing states in the Union.

[Liadin]

Eurytus and Tempra, you two are lacking a decade's worth of experience living here, and so aren't able to see exactly what this bill is going to do to the state.

If anything, people aren't being hysterical enough.

Could you enlighten those of us who don't live in Arizona? I saw the same thing as Eurytus; most of the measures seem pretty common-sense (the bill makes it illegal to be in the country illegally. Um...?). Are Arizona police likely to start stopping every vaguely-Hispanic-looking person on the streets and subjecting them to lengthy questioning about whether or not they have a right to be there? It seems like how much of a problem the law will be depends on how the police interpret the "reason to suspect that someone is in the country illegally"--a problem if that boils down to "all Hispanics," not such a problem if it boils down to investigating the status of people who've already been arrested for a crime and don't have ID.

[Alexia]

a problem if that boils down to "all Hispanics," not such a problem if it boils down to investigating the status of people who've already been arrested for a crime and don't have ID.

Once again, what defines suspicion of not being in the country legally? Is it being a Hispanic person who was arrested? Is it being Hispanic and not having ID? I don't get it? What creates legitimate reason to suspect someone is not in the country legally?

I have heard of native-born Hispanics and naturalized citizens being erroneously deported, incidentally.

[jurble]

On the note of white Puerto Ricans, I knew a white Puerto Rican in high school, though his sister looked a lot more like the popular conception of a Hispanic, and dude was a badass. He once arm-wrestled a Libyo-Irish (Green^2) friend of mine for 2 hours straight. Apparently it was the greatest arm wrestling match anyone had ever seen, and it ended in a draw. I wasn't there, being in class and all, but I'm told the very Earth shook with their exertions, and that men wept, and women fainted. That the lights burst, and ground bore up the skeletons of yesteryear.

But the racial profiling bit is that, most Hispanics are Mestizo and Mulatto, and are brown. There are white Hispanics like Cameron Diaz, but no one thinks about them, because most Hispanics are Mestizo and Mulatto. Hell, most Americans probably think of Spaniards as looking like mestizos because Antonio Banderas' coloring is fairly dark too.

[ztemhead]

I had a whole other thread about the craziness that goes on in this state. I think it's on page two. Either way I don't feel like retyping it all.

[Liadin]

Once again, what defines suspicion of not being in the country legally? Is it being a Hispanic person who was arrested? Is it not having ID? I don't get it? What creates legitimate reason to suspect someone is not in the country legally?

I have heard of native-born Hispanics and naturalized citizens being erroneously deported, incidentally.

While I don't know anything about the situation in Arizona, I'd say there isn't any legitimate reason for stopping people on the street to determine their immigration status, but that checking the status of everyone who's arrested is legitimate. (I don't understand why that's controversial really--it doesn't seem too different from checking to see if someone has a criminal record, which I presume they do.) I also think it would be fair to go to places where illegals are known to work (meat packing factories and so on) and check the status of all employees.

But, I don't know how the AR police would interpret the language of the law.

[Underfoot]

The legislation gives law enforcement officials the right to demand papers from anyone they "reasonably suspect" of being illegal. Rest assured, they will not be asking blonde, blue-eyed Arizonians for papers, rather they will stopping those clearly of Latino/Hispanic heritage. That, to me, is racial profiling, which is contradictory to what she stated on Twitter: Governor Brewer of Arizona said "I just signed SB1070. I will not tolerate racial discrimination or profiling. We must enforce the law."

I also understand that you have to have your ID (there are several acceptable forms) with you when you are stopped by the police, or else you will be arrested on the spot to be cleared (or not) later.

I don't know, but it seems to me that there are many ways this legislation could be abused and that it will negatively affect the whole state; economically and ethically.

Edit:

Another thought. Isn't immigration supposed to be the sole province of the Federal Government, or am I mistaken?

[ztemhead]

I don't know, but it seems to me that there are many ways this legislation could be abused and that it will negatively affect the whole state; economically and ethically.

this is my point. If you're familiar with the work of the MCSO, it's hard to see how this new law won't be abused. And as to whether, after doing stop-and-search at every Home Depot parking lot, day labor center, and landscaping crew in town, someone dares to bring a suit in a state court, asking what the "reasonable basis" for the activity is, all I can say is :laugh: