The Police Are Your Enemy

[BigFatCoward]

I'm not sure where you got that from. I think most people who are arrested likely are arrested for valid reasons. Cops generally don't want to waste their time making arrests that won't stick.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. My point was that the same people claiming that the police essentially jump to conclusions too fast were doing the exact same thing themselves.

sorry, was agreeing with you and expanding on your point, but i just read it back and it was badly worded and not immediately clear WTF i was talking about.

[MinDonner]

Yeah, shit, who needs the police anyway? We should just get everyone in the country to sign up to a voluntary code of self-regulation, agree not to steal from or murder each other, that kind of thing. We can enforce it with threats of visits by our well-muscled mates. That'll do the job. *nods*

[Namorath]

Yeah, shit, who needs the police anyway? We should just get everyone in the country to sign up to a voluntary code of self-regulation, agree not to steal from or murder each other, that kind of thing. We can enforce it with threats of visits by our well-muscled mates. That'll do the job. *nods*

you do!

or else gregor clegane will come and pay you a visit

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Alright Stego and Tormund what is you're alternative if the police are such a terrible institution how should the system be changed?

#1 - End the prosecution of vices. Drugs, prostitution, gambling, etc. These are not "crimes", they are things which annoy the politically powerful.

#2 - End the use of "Paid Confidential Informants". This policy is simply begging for abuse, defies oversight, and is completely contrary to the right to confront your accuser.

#3 - Disarm the police. Cops in other countries go about unarmed, they can here too. If that creates an "intolerable risk" to "officer safety", then I counter that armed police are an intolerable risk to my safety.

#4 - Rigorous prosecution of Police crimes. A wrongful arrest is kidnapping. Lying on a warrant application to acheive a wrongful arrest is perjury and kidnapping. Beating a suspect is felony assault. Sexually assaulting someone in custody or under arrest is aggravated rape. "Internal review" is not acceptable, no one else in society gets this benefit. Start filing charges. People in a position of trust get the maximum penalty. Department disciplinary procedures are not acceptable. "Following department procedure" is not acceptable when it breaks the law.

[TerraPrime]

#3 - Disarm the police. Cops in other countries go about unarmed, they can here too. If that creates an "intolerable risk" to "officer safety", then I counter that armed police are an intolerable risk to my safety.

:blink:

So being a police officer suspends your 2nd Amendment Rights?

[Eurytus]

#3 - Disarm the police. Cops in other countries go about unarmed, they can here too. If that creates an "intolerable risk" to "officer safety", then I counter that armed police are an intolerable risk to my safety.

Generally in other countries where the police go unarmed, certainly in Europe, Joe Public is not armed. That's a fairly big difference.

You want the police to be underarmed compared to the average citizen let alone a criminal?

[Annelise]

(Anyone know of a case actually getting solved?)

As a member of a jury, we convicted the defendant of attempted murder and 6 other charges. The police were obviously a part of that process.

My friend is satisfied with the police's handling of her aunt's murder.

ETA: The police gave my Dad a DUI. Rightfully, I should add.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

So being a police officer suspends your 2nd Amendment Rights?

Of course not. When acting in a private capacity I do not care if the police want to tow artillery behind their pickup trucks. When on the job, they can't carry. I'm not allowed to carry by my employer, I bet neither are you. This does not violate the second amendment AFAIK. If the cops want to carry guns around, they are welcome to seek alternate employment.

You want the police to be underarmed compared to the average citizen let alone a criminal?

Yes. They are elsewhere too, unless you think that all the criminals in Europe walk around unarmed as well.

[Eurytus]

Yes. They are elsewhere too, unless you think that all the criminals in Europe walk around unarmed as well.

I think you have little conception of how comparatively rare gun crime is in Europe. Knives maybe, but a knife is not noticeably superior to a truncheon, which the police have.

Nor do you answer the point on the police being made more vulnerable than CITIZENS.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

I think you have little conception of how comparatively rare gun crime is in Europe. Knives maybe, but a knife is not noticeably superior to a truncheon, which the police have.

Nor do you answer the point on the police being made more vulnerable than CITIZENS.

I never said guns now did I? Given the choice between a knife and a truncheon, I'll take a knife any time. They are quite superior.

And I did answer the point. I have no problems with police being outmatched by CITIZENS. Particularly because the police are CITIZENS. Part of the whole problem is that police are viewed as a separate class from CITIZENS. They are the sanctified class (who cannot be touched, lest thou be charged with "assualting a police officer" and CITIZENS are mere mundanes (who can be beaten at will, and then be charged with "resisting arrest" and "assaulting a police officer").

[Eurytus]

I never said guns now did I? Given the choice between a knife and a truncheon, I'll take a knife any time. They are quite superior.

And I did answer the point. I have no problems with police being outmatched by CITIZENS. Particularly because the police are CITIZENS. Part of the whole problem is that police are viewed as a separate class from CITIZENS. They are the sanctified class (who cannot be touched, lest thou be charged with "assualting a police officer" and CITIZENS are mere mundanes (who can be beaten at will, and then be charged with "resisting arrest" and "assaulting a police officer").

And given that you want citizens to be armed and police to be unarmed you appear to want to keep them as a seperate class. Whatever the case, the idea is nonsense really. If its safe for citizens to carry guns then its safe for the police to.

[ljkeane]

I never said guns now did I? Given the choice between a knife and a truncheon, I'll take a knife any time. They are quite superior.

That's somewhat debateable. At least one police officer I know told me that someone trying to attack him with a knife wasn't too much of a concern as it's relatively easy to just break their arm with a baton.

[OldLordPlumm]

Part of me suspects that Stego is stirring things up for shits and giggles, but I've been wrong before in underestimating the attitudes of some people in America on this issue.

In a similar thread years ago I put a question to someone (like is being done now) as to what they would do if someone was threatening their home etc. The response was they'd get their Colt 45 something something awesome gun and that it was every citizens responsibility to protect themselves. I assumed the person was in banjo territory but don't think they were. Also assumed they were joking, they weren't.

[King Nobody]

Nor do you answer the point on the police being made more vulnerable than CITIZENS.

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

I don't know if I'd take it quite as far as what I think Tormund is suggesting though. Police should have access to guns, but their use should be extremely restricted. Regular patrolmen, traffic cops and the like shouldn't have guns when performing their regular duties.

And given that you want citizens to be armed and police to be unarmed you appear to want to keep them as a seperate class. Whatever the case, the idea is nonsense really. If its safe for citizens to carry guns then its safe for the police to

Sure, citizens can carry guns but which of the two groups is allowed to use their guns against the other? When citizens who protect themselves with force against corrupt police actions are treated the same way as police who use force, even deadly force, against innocents you will have a point.

I agree with all of Tormund's points, I would also like to see the abolition of "stop and identify" laws and anything like them, as well as the police's ability to detain you without charge. If I'm walking down the street I shouldn't have to stop and talk to some cop just because he has nothing better to do than harass people who are clearly not engaged in any criminal activity.

[mormont]

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

What about when the people fear each other?

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

What about when the people fear each other?

Then all is proceeding normally.

[Eurytus]

Sure, citizens can carry guns but which of the two groups is allowed to use their guns against the other? When citizens who protect themselves with force against corrupt police actions are treated the same way as police who use force, even deadly force, against innocents you will have a point.

Actually the cops aren't allowed to use their guns against civilians. They are allowed to use them against criminals.

[TerraPrime]

Actually the cops aren't allowed to use their guns against civilians. They are allowed to use them against criminals.

Um... no... criminals are people who've been convicted. The best you can do is that they're allowed to use their guns against suspects who are posing immediate danger to others.

[mormont]

Then all is proceeding normally.

Really? In your world, you go about in fear of other people all the time? Explains a lot.

[Balefont]

Several pounds of pot is akin to having a stocked bar in one's home, imo.

Many states waste so much time, money and resources due to pot being illegal.