UK Politics VI

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Good news, Griffin has been crushed in Barking.

[Old Nan]

Wow, Nick Griffin really shit the bed. Less than 15% support?

[The Marquis de Leech]

Labour's holding up very well in Scotland.

[MinDonner]

One good thing to come out of this, at least. And it's still looking like it'll be hung?

Could have been worse.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

As far as I'm concerned, Gordon Brown should resign. He was never elected as prime minister, he's clearly got a smaller party than the conservatives, and Nick Clegg claimed previously that the winner of the election would be the party with the most votes/seats, so I don't see how they could join forces here. Brown has lost, and should resign.

[mormont]

You guys going on about PR need to remember that the BNP have had another rise in vote-share.

Of about 1% so far, meaning they have less than 2%. They wouldn't get any seats under most PR systems either with that performance.

In PR systems indiviuals have no power and MPs almost never vote against party line. You can be kicked out of party in PR systems, and your political career is over, unless you are popular enough to create new party.

This is exactly the same as FPTP, then.

It's a funny thing how democracy works. The three main iconoclastic intellectual parties, the Lib-Dems, UKIP, and BNP, command 4582285 votes as of the latest BBC update and 28 seats. Meanwhile, Labour commands 4553936 votes and 141 seats.

There is simply no way you can say anything meaningful by aggregating votes for UKIP and the BNP with the Lib Dems. The Lib Dems have absolutely nothing in common with either the blazer racists or the bomber-jacket racists, and if there is one thing the BNP and UKIP are not it is 'intellectual'. Considering the Lib Dems represent 80% of that combined total and are unquestionably a mainstream party, I can't see what on earth you are trying to say here, except perhaps (looking at your other posts) to try to fool yourself that the BNP are a significant and reputable political force. To which I will repeat: less than 2%.

[Paxter]

The outcome here is still incredibly uncertain. A hung parliament has been virtually guaranteed for several hours now, but there is still no clear indication (as far as I can tell anyway) as to what will happen next. The sheer number of gains made by the Tories would appear to represent a vote of no confidence in Brown's leadership, but the fact remains that Cameron has failed to convince enough voters that his party should form a majority government.

[john]

Well i was broadly expecting the result of the vote, when i got up. I wasn't expecting the news that hundreds of people wouldn't get to vote. In a British election WTF?

So, nobody wins and the Conservatives aren't even going to almost win as much as they thought. Still, I think Cameron will stick with a minority government if/when he gets the opportunity. Although personally I'd like to see electoral reform (or a referendum at least).

The conservatives have apparently won a majority of seats in England, so I'm glad my scottish vote contributed to the chaos.

[mormont]

The conservatives have apparently won a majority of seats in England

Could be a big point, this. I can see the Tory government insisting that only English MPs are allowed to vote on devolved policy, so they can get their education reforms through.

[slim da reaper]

In PR systems indiviuals have no power and MPs almost never vote against party line. You can be kicked out of party in PR systems, and your political career is over, unless you are popular enough to create new party.

Anguy, PR where coalitions are necessary to form a government, every individual counts, and you can't get any more of a pathetic parliament than we have right now. PR would breathe life back into our democracy.

[Old Nan]

There is simply no way you can say anything meaningful by aggregating votes for UKIP and the BNP with the Lib Dems.

They're the third, fourth, and fifth largest parties in the United Kingdom, and combined they exceed the total number of votes of the second-largest while, combined, being given only a fraction of the representation. I don't see how that reflects well on the British electoral system. You can repeat "2%" all you like, but 2% of 650 is thirteen seats, just as 23% of 650 is fully one hundred seats more the United Kingdom sees fit to give the Liberal Democrats.

The Lib Dems have absolutely nothing in common with either the blazer racists or the bomber-jacket racists

They're minorities; I wouldn't call that nothing. You call them "mainstream" but they're undeniably being silenced, much as the other two are.

if there is one thing the BNP and UKIP are not it is 'intellectual'.

How not? Perhaps they have limited appeal to intellectuals, but that doesn't mean they don't think, nor does it mean that the Oxbridge set doesn't fight, however much distance they may choose to put between themselves and the actions they precipitate.

I can't see what on earth you are trying to say here, except perhaps (looking at your other posts) to try to fool yourself that the BNP are a significant and reputable political force.

To be honest, I couldn't care less. The BNP has some policies I'd like to see adapted to America, but what they do in England is an amusement and nothing more. Nick Griffin's far more entertaining than Gordon Brown, and entertainment's all one can hope to get out of politics. How many fans would ASOIAF have if it were nothing but a drawn out negotiation between the Lannisters and Tyrells in King's Landing?

[Maltaran]

Could be a big point, this. I can see the Tory government insisting that only English MPs are allowed to vote on devolved policy, so they can get their education reforms through.

That's been their response to the West Lothian question for a while, IIRC.

The BBC is predicting that the Tories will end up with 306, which even with the Unionists would still be 10 or so short of a majority. They're also saying that a Lib-Lab coalition would have the same numbers - 10 to 15 short of what they need.

[The Anti-Targ]

How come things have come to a grinding halt with 53 seats still to report? Conservatives are 41 short of a majority so they have a mathematical chance at a majority, but last report I read suggests they'll top out at 306. Not enough to coalesce with the DUP for a majority. Projected total for Lib Dems+ Labour also means they fall short.

It all amounts to a big vote of no confidence for all the parties. No confidence in the current Labour lot to carry on governing. No confidence in the Conservatives to do any better. The electorate didn't know what to do, kinda like the politicians don't know what they're doing.

What's the overall left/right split in terms of vote % and seat allocation?

I guess you could say that with Labour on 28.8% and the Lib Dems on 22.8% there is a clear but slim majority of the overall vote still preferring a centre-left government. It does kinda give Brown and Clegg some legitimate basis for claiming a mandate to be first to try to form a government. It's certainly the angle I'd try to play on.

[mormont]

They're the third, fourth, and fifth largest parties in the United Kingdom

And the SNP, the DUP and the English Greens are the sixth, seventh and eighth. But there is no sensible point you can make by aggregating the votes for those three either.

The BNP and UKIP are tiny racist minority parties who can just about muster one fifth of the Lib Dem vote between them, who have no MPs, and who differ from the Lib Dems in the most fundamental ways imaginable. If you are seeking to make a point about electoral unfairness, adding these votes to the Lib Dem vote adds nothing whatsoever to your point.

You can repeat "2%" all you like, but 2% of 650 is thirteen seats

Thanks, I will. 2%. ;)

But very few electoral systems in the world award seats like that, so your point is rather weak: and as I say, picking on the BNP as the hard-done-by party adds nothing that discussing the far greater injustice of the Lib Dem result.

How not?

Because their odious and repellent views show no sign whatsoever of intellectual content: because they appeal solely to emotion and deny the facts when they don't like them: because they would not attach the label to themselves, as they have a contempt for education and science, which they realise lead to an utter rejection of their sickness.

[Deedles]

Sorry but how on earth are the lib dems, ukip and the bnp being conflated? I've read the post and rarely seen such fuzzy logic.

Ulster is really going down to the wire with a 2, yes two, vote majority in one constituency. Gives Sinn Fein are abstentionist and the unionist candidate (joint DUP and UUP) will probably vote conservative it's not good for labour anyway.

Sadly I think the big losers in this election are the lib dems. I'd hoped to see them make a break through and perhaps approach 100 seats.

I was delighted to see Griffin go down though.

[Daeric]

Turned out the rumours I heard last night where correct, Keighley swung to Con, not at all surprised, we lost the labour Mp that alot of swing voters liked and had just much Torie advertisment pumped into us it was beyond belief.

I also notice that Skipton hasn't be called yet but thats a fairly strong torie seat anyway.

Nick Griffin ran in Keighley last election and was told basically by the majority of the voters to feck off we prefer Anne Cryer, made me proud.

Oh and one final edit, Middlesbrough held labour, what a surprise due a large chunk of the voting block there being students from Uni of Teesside.

[Datepalm]

Assuming a hung parliament with a lib/lab coalition, is it down to the minor parties? SNP, Sinn Fein, Plaid Cymru and the Social Democratic and Labour Party, plus Green and Alliance have as of now 18 seats...none of them quite sound like natural Tory partners. The Tories could have what we had during the last election - a largest party that can't round up enough partners to form a coalition.

[The Anti-Targ]

They're the third, fourth, and fifth largest parties in the United Kingdom, and combined they exceed the total number of votes of the second-largest while, combined, being given only a fraction of the representation. I don't see how that reflects well on the British electoral system. You can repeat "2%" all you like, but 2% of 650 is thirteen seats, just as 23% of 650 is fully one hundred seats more the United Kingdom sees fit to give the Liberal Democrats.

People in glass houses and all that dude. Where you are this would be exactly the same outcome given you're part of a FPTP electoral system as well. Unless you're a supporter of moving the US to a PR electoral system (at least on a state by state basis) of course, in which case criticise away. In the end I agree that FPTP does not fairly reflect (and hence is not the right system) the will of the people. I just want to be sure there isn't a hypocritical undertone in what you're saying here.

[Stalker]

Assuming a hung parliament with a lib/lab coalition, is it down to the minor parties? SNP, Sinn Fein, Plaid Cymru and the Social Democratic and Labour Party, plus Green and Alliance have as of now 18 seats...none of them quite sound like natural Tory partners. The Tories could have what we had during the last election - a largest party that can't round up enough partners to form a coalition.

I think you might want to lower your expectations on Sinn Fein participating in an alliance. Or anything else, for that matter.

[Deedles]

Peter Hain is on rte ( Irish radio ) saying there's am obvious progressive ruling coalition with lib/lab/welsh independents. Ok then..

Datepalm, yes that's correct. However sinn fein abstain due to their reluctance to take am oath to the queen, among other issues. Alliance are similar to lib dem. Sylvia hermon won't go conservative. The DUP probably will though.