The Dany Like Thread

[Spastic Plastic]

Yeah, the Catelyn hatred is annoying (I'm a fan of her chapters) and almost always comes from sexist fanboys. Even though Robb wouldn't have lasted a month without his mom's "bickering" and "nagging".

I'm not sure how sympathetic Dany would be if seen through someone else's POV.

[The SmilingKnight]

I don't hate Dany, but I probably qualify as more of a critic than a fan.

I feel the existence of plot armor that some have mentioned,

What plot armor? Something specific some other characters do not posses maybe?

I did find her transition from unempowered girl (when you basically have no choice but to sympathize with her) to superwoman ... unexciting to read about, though. It's exciting in the sense that we get a lot of flashy badass moments, but it's very unreal to me, I cannot relate to it at all. Perhaps some of it does come down to my being a female reader. No matter how badass I want to be, I don't get to automatically have my way in traditionally male spheres just because I am divinely gifted with weapons of mass destruction.

1-There is no weapons of mass destruction. There is only three newborn and very weak dragons which could be easily killed even by the end of A feast for Crows.

2-There is also no flashy badass moments that seem fake or overdone or forced.

3-She does not automatically get her way - ever.

And thats the objective way of looking at her. By comparison yours doesnt seem such - very much.

But I get that some characters, male or female, are just not as much about realism. GRRM is pretty up front with the fact that Dany is Super Special Fantasy Woman, and that's good.

She ceratinly is ... special, but far from such simplistic characterisation that cheapens everything she does very unfairly.

She does not get things easy, nothing is given to her on a silver plater and she is far from making every decision a perfect one.

Furthermore, despite her role of the Mother of Dragons and her metamorphosis she is very frail and inexperienced and we can see that a lot of her reasoning still belongs to someone young, someone still learning.

I still was intellectually invested in her chapters, but not emotionally. Which goes back to my not hating her: I don't, in fact I find it hard to have any feelings about her at all.

Yet you are far from objective about her. You dont have to feel hate exactly but your coldnes towards her is a sort of emotional (and intellectual) relation or reaction anyway.

O course, im not saying you should like her. We all have our favorites and disliked characters and thas fine.

I just cant see your evaluation of her as objective - looking at the above statements.

[Lady Blackfish]

What plot armor? Something specific some other characters do not posses maybe?

There's never been a moment so far where I truly wondered if Dany was going to succeed (this goes for my experience with Jon Snow as well). She has to get to Westeros, her whole story builds up to that point (similarly I can pretty much tell that Jon Snow is going to stick around for the Others invasion), if she didn't it'd be an unjustifiable waste of page space by GRRM's lean (despite being sprawling) standards. That takes some suspense out, although I think even still something can be interesting despite knowing the outcome, because the way people get from A to B can be dramatic and compelling. The how can be interesting, especially if it promises further consequences, but the if is a foregone conclusion so far.

2-There is also no flashy badass moments that seem fake or overdone or forced.

This evaluation is going to vary from reader to reader.

1-There is no weapons of mass destruction. There is only three newborn and very weak dragons which could be easily killed even by the end of A feast for Crows.

3-She does not automatically get her way - ever.

I agree, she has to use her brain and her lessons and make choices, so "automatic" is perhaps a bad choice of words. But she starts out with a very different palette of options from the get-go having those dragons as a fallback. No, they are not infallible, and it would be hyperbolic of me to insist they were so. A definite advantage particular only to her? Definitely. A lot has been made of what a big deal it is that there are dragons once again in the world, I would really find it odd if they didn't play a big role in her plans for taking over Westeros in the future books.

And thats the objective way of looking at her. By comparison yours doesnt seem such - very much.

Yeah, again, some of these things are going to vary from reader to reader. Merely stating that your own interpretation is objective isn't really proving it is so.

She ceratinly is ... special, but far from such simplistic characterisation that cheapens everything she does very unfairly.

She does not get things easy, nothing is given to her on a silver plater and she is far from making every decision a perfect one.

I never said that everything she does is cheapened, nor that she is given anything on a silver platter. Such arguments are made in discussions about Dany, yes, but you'd probably find it more fruitful to pursue those particulars with someone who actually holds those positions.

And I don't think that she is done growing, either, only that the rate of her growth was noticeable (this is also why a lot of people in the thread like her, so I don't think I'm making anything up) and that it took me out of the moment.

Yet you are far from objective about her. You dont have to feel hate exactly but your coldnes towards her is a sort of emotional (and intellectual) relation or reaction anyway.

A sort of emotional reaction in the sense that, uhhh, it fails to register my emotions at all? I don't think I'm claiming any more objectivity than anyone else in this thread, if you can point out where I did that I'd love to know. You disagree with me, sure, that's cool.

[The SmilingKnight]

There's never been a moment so far where I truly wondered if Dany was going to succeed.

Suceed in what? Exactly.

Going to wasteros and just claiming it and becoming the super mega Queen? Just like that? I really dont think so. Not with Martin.

Especially not with the guaranteed bitter-sweet ending.

That takes some suspense out, although I think even still something can be interesting despite knowing the outcome, because the way people get from A to B can be dramatic and compelling.

Generally i agree with this statement but what outcome do you think you know?

This evaluation is going to vary from reader to reader.

True but taht doesnt matter since objectively she has none of those.

No, they are not infallible, and it would be hyperbolic of me to insist they were so. A definite advantage particular only to her? Definitely.

Advantage? They have been a burden and a danger as much as an advantage all the way - I would say even more.

And what little advantage they represented in a few cases is totally believable and appropriate seeing they are dragons after all and having them be of no advantage at all would be ... ludicrous.

Merely stating that your own interpretation is objective isn't really proving it is so.

In that case it was and not just by stating it but by what i and you said about same events.

I never said that everything she does is cheapened, nor that she is given anything on a silver platter

Excuse me if i misinterpreted your "Dany is Super Special Fantasy Woman," line.

A sort of emotional reaction in the sense that, uhhh, it fails to register my emotions at all?

Feeling nothing is an emotion. :)

But im sure thats not easy to understand. And its not easy to explain either.

Anyway even if we disregard that i think your lack of excitement or identification comes from misinterpreting some important facts about her which makes you view her as "Super Special Fantasy Woman".

I think Marting did a very good job with her in keeping her away from that mold so far, looking at her whole story arc.

You disagree with me, sure, that's cool.

Of course i do.

[Lady Blackfish]

Suceed in what? Exactly.

Going to wasteros and just claiming it and becoming the super mega Queen? Just like that? I really dont think so. Not with Martin.

In each of the obstacles along her way to getting to Westeros with the ability to mount a serious conquest in tact. Once she lands in Westeros, yes it's pretty obvious that she's going to have more troubles, but that hasn't happened yet. What has happened so far are obstacles that stand in the way of her reaching Westeros with considerable power, and yet I doubt that she would ever succumb to those obstacles because she pretty much needs to get there, that's where the crux of her thematic and character drama lies.

And what little advantage they represented in a few cases is totally believable and appropriate seeing they are dragons after all and having them be of no advantage at all would be ... ludicrous.

Yes indeed. As I said to begin with, the magic in her story is in accordance with the larger magical presence in the whole series. It just tends to not interest me as much (which is how I worded it in my original post).

In that case it was and not just by stating it but by what i and you said about same events.

Le pardon?

Excuse me if i misinterpreted your "Dany is Super Special Fantasy Woman," line.

There's no need to be snippy. You misunderstood and I clarified, no big deal either way.

Anyway even if we disregard that i think your lack of excitement or identification comes from misinterpreting some important facts about her which makes you view her as "Super Special Fantasy Woman".

I do know she is more than that, which is interesting to me. But there is enough there to prevent emotional investment, that's all. She is an interesting play on some genre conventions, and I am curious about her. I just don't care about her as much as others, I find it difficult to be close to her. And while I think that we are encouraged to feel more distanced to her as time goes along, just as a reflection of the lonely life of leaders, I feel like I fell out of her story before I was intended to.

From my first post all I was relating was my own reader experience, so I'm really not interested in arguing with you about my personal comprehension of emotions vs objectivity.

[The SmilingKnight]

Le pardon?

heh,

Excuse my clumsy sentence there. English not being primary language and words in my own being in different places in a sentence sometimes produces such weird results.

There's no need to be snippy. You misunderstood and I clarified, no big deal either way.

Hah, youre not half bad yurself lady blackfish ill give you that.

Ofcourse its a big deal but ill let you pretend. After all im a gentleman. Too.

From my first post all I was relating was my own reader experience,

:Tips the Smiling helmet:

Shame you dont have any pretty swords mam.

[shadow catlady]

I did find her transition from unempowered girl (when you basically have no choice but to sympathize with her) to superwoman ... unexciting to read about, though. It's exciting in the sense that we get a lot of flashy badass moments, but it's very unreal to me, I cannot relate to it at all. Perhaps some of it does come down to my being a female reader. No matter how badass I want to be, I don't get to automatically have my way in traditionally male spheres just because I am divinely gifted with weapons of mass destruction. It's noticeably different than the rest of the books, and for whatever reason, in this series in particular, it's not as interesting to me as the real ways in which real women have to deal with their real social limitations.

Interesting, because I thought I liked Dany because I was a female reader! Your reasoning makes sense, though; I'm wondering why I was so much more satisfied with someone getting their way in traditionally male spheres with badassery and weapons than I was reading about Catelyn's narrower role and choices. I think I'm more depressed by the "real ways" of "real women" and find the empowered and fantastical role that Dany plays exciting and escapist. (I also, for most of my youth, didn't exactly rule out the possibility I would find a wormhole to another universe; I didn't expect it but I kept my eyes open in case I had some grand quest to fulfill somewhere I'd never heard of.)

[King Bronn l]

Yeah, the Catelyn hatred is annoying (I'm a fan of her chapters) and almost always comes from sexist fanboys. Even though Robb wouldn't have lasted a month without his mom's "bickering" and "nagging".

I'm not sure how sympathetic Dany would be if seen through someone else's POV.

Classy.

[Lady Blackfish]

I think I'm more depressed by the "real ways" of "real women" and find the empowered and fantastical role that Dany plays exciting and escapist.

Yeah, I think that's just a matter of taste. I think both things are important in that ol' Female Character Context, both the realities and the possibilities, but I end up feeling in favor of real women over fantasy women, if made to choose. However, Martin doesn't force us to choose, which is good on him.

[The SmilingKnight]

Interesting, because I thought I liked Dany because I was a female reader! Your reasoning makes sense, though; I'm wondering why I was so much more satisfied with someone getting their way in traditionally male spheres with badassery and weapons than I was reading about Catelyn's narrower role and choices. I think I'm more depressed by the "real ways" of "real women" and find the empowered and fantastical role that Dany plays exciting and escapist. (I also, for most of my youth, didn't exactly rule out the possibility I would find a wormhole to another universe; I didn't expect it but I kept my eyes open in case I had some grand quest to fulfill somewhere I'd never heard of.)

Im glad to hear this because i feel the same, even though im not a woman.

Of course i dont agree that Daenerys is only this fantastical and empowered character. I think Martin does a good job of keeping her real too despite her obvious role.

Im not too sure what these "real" real women would be in Songs since most of the PoV characters or main female character roles seem pretty exceptional when you look at it.

Maybe Catelyn would be the closest to it though... not anymore.

[shadow catlady]

However, Martin doesn't force us to choose, which is good on him.

Yes, a refreshing treat!

[Datepalm]

I'm really not sure how I feel about Dany yet as a character - I like her chapters, I like the worldbuilding there and the minor characters (as much as I wish both has a bit more depth sometimes) and I enjoy the badass "hell yeah!" moments like the Dragons or the freeing of the slaves...Dany herself though still feels a bit bland sometimes.

I actually really like insanely driven characters - Aeron, Melisandre, Stannis, Beric, Jaquen Hajhar, Theon - and I find this story of the way people assign themselves narratives and then the things they have to do to keep making them fit and the mental and emotional acrobatics of believing no matter what, because at that point surrendering them becomes unthinkable...

I love that stuff, and Dany seems a shoe in, but there has been very little of those inner conflicts for her as yet. She has been skating by - not in any physical sense, obviously she goes through some great hardships and challenges - but in the reader (this reader anyway) never seeing any cracks in her sense of who she is and what her life means. I have never yet doubted who Dany is and what the story of Dany is.

Basically, i'm going to be fascinated by Dany as a character when her mission begins to fall apart, when shes fighting her friends, when she's going mad, when she has to look at her life and have to choose to be someone else, when she fails, hard, when it costs, when she's wondering if it was really all worth it, when everything she believes gives her life meaning slips through her fingers and changes into something else and she's left metaphorically naked and alone on the ugly desert of the soul....then i'm going to be interested.

Of course, I think thats where its going, so i'm one happy camper.

[Red Sun]

I like the character Dany just fine and her inner transition feels believable to me. I also don't really mind when characters have a special place in the story and are more empowered by others. However, some of the narrative tropes in her storyline are really grating to me, especially "the whitest of white girls under the dark skinned barbarians". Even when I read the story for the first time, I rolled my eyes or sighed at some parts because it is always the same kind of story. And even now, the Dothraki culture just doesn't make sense to me as it is used in the story, especially when I learned more about Nomadic societies and/or Mongolian history and culture. Such a culture just clashes with the "isolation" that is Dany's theme. And it's really unsettling that only the people of Westeros feel like real people, and that only their arrival at the east would enlargen the scope and really impact her development. This is not really the fault of the character, and I would never hate her for it, but it limits my enjoyment.

[The SmilingKnight]

Basically, i'm going to be fascinated by Dany as a character when her mission begins to fall apart, when shes fighting her friends, when she's going mad, when she has to look at her life and have to choose to be someone else, when she fails, hard, when it costs, when she's wondering if it was really all worth it, when everything she believes gives her life meaning slips through her fingers and changes into something else and she's left metaphorically naked and alone on the ugly desert of the soul....then i'm going to be interested.

Well you know... that already happened.

And it's really unsettling that only the people of Westeros feel like real people, and that only their arrival at the east would enlargen the scope and really impact her development.

There was a thread about this already. I think its just due to Martin concentrating on Westeros and its characters much more so far and the fact that all of her background and history of her house is connected to people back in Westeros.

Many people converging on her are in a sense her home and past of her house reaching for her, bringing the reality of it all to her.

As that part of her growth is concerned it is only natural that people from the west would be the ones that will impact it the most.

[Red Sun]

There was a thread about this already. I think its just due to Martin concentrating on Westeros and its characters much more so far and the fact that all of her background and history of her house is connected to people back in Westeros.

Many people converging on her are in a sense her home and past of her house reaching for her, bringing the reality of it all to her.

Yes, I know about the other thread, but my like and dislike for the character are pretty much connected to the way how her story is told.

I don't really agree with your other point. Dany might think that Westeros is her home, but it's not really true, since she didn't grow up there and she is and should be more influenced by the environment in which she grew up. Westeros is like a fantasy or a projection, but she has no idea of the reality. That in itself is an interesting conflict, and one of the things that draw me to her characters. However, I would feel a bit easier about its execution, if there was an tangible in-story distinction between her projections and the objective reality. And no, it doesn't help if the new POV characters are only people from Westeros, i. e. people that are established as real human beings in the minds of the reader.

However, I am interested in her further story and I do hope for a continuation of her inner conflicts.

ETA: I should perhaps precise that I do not condemn her sense of entitlement nor do I think that she shouldn't consider Westeros has her true home. However, if her subjective perception of the reality turns too much into an objective truth and she comes out of all this with no traces of "otherness" in the eyes of the Westerosi then I would think that there are serious problems with the concept of the characters. Right now, I can not see yet where it will go.

[The SmilingKnight]

Thats all fine except i didnt say she thinks of Westeros as her home.

She didnt grow up in a "enviroment". She grew up on the run, constantly moving from one place to another so she didnt have time to connect to a place in such a way and neither of those represented any kind of safety for her.

Therefore she cannot think of any of those places as home. As she doesnt.

Either because they were never really safe or lasted too short.

Home is not just a place where you spend some time.

I was merely speaking... poetically.

[trio]

However, if her subjective perception of the reality turns too much into an objective truth and she comes out of all this with no traces of "otherness" in the eyes of the Westerosi then I would think that there are serious problems with the concept of the characters.

Yeah, I would really really hate that. It would bug me immensely.

Whenever I go off into a little reverie about what's gonna happen to Dany next, I always assume that:

1. Other Westerosi characters are going to meet her, we'll finally see her through another POV's eyes, and that they're going to be really taken aback by how much of a well, barbarian she is.

And 2. That whether she wins the throne or not, that she's at least going to land in Westeros and find herself completely out of sync with everyone around her, and feels more at home with her retinue from across the sea. And it gives her a major reality check.

These two things have always been a sort of baseline for me simply because I cannot imagine how they would not happen. She's been moulded by Dothraki culture as much as any other.

So if it turns out that the story quashes all traces of her "otherness" it'll be a major headf**k for me, frankly.

If everyone is all "LALALA! Why, she's perfect!" it'd seem really odd.

[The SmilingKnight]

In regards to her interaction with cultures over the sea i primarily see her as a stranger in a strange land.

Every culture she has come in contact with left a trace but hasnt completely shaped her. Dothraki or any other.

And i dont doubt that Westeros will be as Strange to her for a long time.

In some ways she transcends cultures she came in contact with, never submitting to one in particular fully.

I also have no doubt that she wont be regarded as perfect and just bowed down to. She hasnt been so far and i see no reason why it would suddenly change.

This is Martin we are talking about.

[SingleMort]

Personally I like Dany because she is not perfect. She makes mistakes, trusts the wrong people and sometimes does terrible things but it is exactly those sort of things that make me like her. The best characters in any series of book I think are the characters that aren't completely good and aren't completely bad.

I like just about all the characters in this series (barring Sam perhaps but I don't want to get into that) but the ones I like most are the ones I think are the most interesting, like Dany, Tyrion, Arya, Littlefinger, Varys, Jaime. I still like other characters like Ned and Jon but not as much. Jon for me is too muuch of a good guy right now, too honorable and such like. That why I'm looking forward ADWD where he's apparently going to become more of a grey character.

People talk about Dany's right to the throne (or lack of it it). But for me that is not even an issue. I mean being King or Queen in Westeros or any medieval-like world (real or not) means basically having a bigger better army than all the other guys. That's how the Targaryens did it, that's how Robert Baratheon did it and it worked out pretty well for them. The right to the throne is irrelevant. If you look at it that way you can say that no one has the right to the throne. Kingz aren't picked by God or elected they're just people who either they or their ancestors defeated all their competition on or off the battlefield through sheer power and strength of will. That's how kings are born. It's got absolutely nothing to do with right or wrong.

If you're talking about who you think would make the best King or Queen that's another matter entirely. Personally I think Dany would make the best monarch (at this stage though it's very early in the day, she's demonstrated the beginnings of great leadership and is far from being a tyrant. Her age is also irrelevent she has shown to be both intelligent and capable to act decisivly. More than that she has the ability to inspire confidence in those around her. Despite her age she has it in her to command and those around her recognise that.

Besides those facts you can't really want someone like Stannis for king can you?? I suppose that there could always be Jon. But things seem to have a habit of falling in Jon's lap; Longclaw, Commander of the Night's Watch, Lord of Winterfell/King In the North (if he ever gets that letter),... Ygritte. I know some people criticise her for it but another thing I like about Dany is that she's wants to be Queen, And why shouldn't she? Would you really want a king who didn't want to be king? Would you want candidates running for President or Prime Minister (depending where you live) who didn't actually want to be in power??

BTW: Drowned Princess I love you last comment--

'With Dany, you can see her put up with bullshit for as long as she possibly can and then it's "screw this, release the dragons"'.-- I so want Dany to say this. Know it won't happen but how awesome would it be. :D

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I LOVE HER SO MUCH I NAMED MY DOG AFTER HER.

MOTHER OF DRAGONS, FREER OF SLAVES, BREAKER OF CHAINS, CALLED THE UNBURNT. DAENERYS STORMBORN, THE LAST DRAGON AND TRUE QUEEN OF WESTEROS!

It doesn't get more epic than Daenerys. And unlike Jon certain other characters she doesn't just whine and get handed everything. She has to actually FIGHT for her success every step of the way, and uses her brain to solve seemingly unsolvable situations. She suffered the greatest losses a person can suffer - of her lover and her child, but by her own actions, turned her loss into her rebirth as a true queen. She guides her khalasaar hundreds of miles across a desert. She outmaneuvered slave traders and seasoned mercenary groups during the sacks of Astapor and Yunkai. She listens to advice from those older and wiser than herself, but never allows them to rule through her. She is ruthless at times, but it seems to only be when it is actually necessary, unlike Tyrion The Hound certain other much-beloved characters.

I've never understood the Daenerys hate. Especially people calling her stupid (?!?!), or evil (really???) but then I can't judge now can I... :rolleyes: