Israeli Forces attack Aid Flotilla to Gaza

[The Space Pope]

Yeah, it seems that the point of the timing of the raid was it was the last time it could be done while it was still nighttime.

[Datepalm]

It depends on who you think the flotilla is for. That it won't effect Israeli internal politics is, I think, a given. (although I could be wrong, I'm sure you know more on this account then I).

To the contrary - of course it will: it has escalated the violence, hardened the positions of the moderates, greatly increased the deterioration of the relashionship with Turkey and its capacity to play a meaningful role in the peace process, probably derailed the upcoming talks with the PA*, and if the protests in the north turn to violent riots, add that too. This has a lot of (negative) influence on everything but the Gaza blockade.

I think its important to note that this would have been the case in any confrontation, even without violence. That there were deaths means its gotten exponentially bigger in the media, but the underlying issues wouldn't have been any different if the ships had stares at eachother and sent unkindly worded morse code messages for a couple days in Israeli territorial waters until everyone got bored.

However the point seems to be to draw international attention and pressure to the issue. And THAT has a chance of success. A very very very tiny one I think, but hey, they apparently feel strongly enough about it to try.

Thats the very, very, very tiny possibility of a pro. The cons vastly outweigh it, and they knew it.

Galactus,

This seems very likely. Which is what makes the entire thing all the more tragic.

It makes it stupid, pathetic, and makes a solution that much harder. Thanks for nothing, traitors.

*though I think someone - Dani Ayalon? - was quoted as saying something like "We won't let this provocation change our commitment to the talks. There was no enthusiasm anyway."

[Galactus]

There was at one point a Molotov cocktail. Those things do NOT just lie around. Also saw a slingshot and marbles. People don't just "pick up" stuff like this.

Eh? A molotov cocktail can be fixed up in minutes. That's the entire point of it. It's just a rag in a bottle with something flammable in it. A ship likely has tons of fuel. The fact that they are so easy and quick to make is precisely the reason they are so popular among rioters.

[Samalander]

Eh? A molotov cocktail can be fixed up in minutes. That's the entire point of it. It's just a rag in a bottle with something flammable in it. A ship likely has tons of fuel. The fact that they are so easy and quick to make is precisely the reason they are so popular among rioters.

The poster said "they picked up stuff that was handy".

A Molotov cocktail might be fixed up in minutes and is easy to make, but I wouldn't say it qualifies as handy.

[Galactus]

The poster said "they picked up stuff that was handy".

A Molotov cocktail might be fixed up in minutes and is easy to make, but I wouldn't say it qualifies as handy.

My point is, it can easily be mocked up from the moment a hostile ship is spotted and until they board it. Heck, depending on how quick they are it could probably be mocked up *during* the fight. (depending on where the various ingredients are stored)

It's not called an improvised weapon for nothing.

[The Space Pope]

The poster said "they picked up stuff that was handy".

A Molotov cocktail might be fixed up in minutes and is easy to make, but I wouldn't say it qualifies as handy.

Wait, how little time do you think "picking up what's handy" entails?

A Molotav cocktail can be put together in like a minute or 2. That's like the definition of "grabbing whatever's handy". We're talking a few minutes of prep here tops.

And considering this ship may not have been the first to be assaulted, they may have had those few minutes.

[Samalander]

How many more posts before this thread shuts itself down and I can go to sleep?

[BLU-RAY]

How many more posts before this thread shuts itself down and I can go to sleep?

Nobody's really stopping you...

[Samalander]

Nobody's really stopping you...

I've seen that one before, but it's still funny.

[Errant Bard]

you'd have to be extremely foolish and/or supremely ignorant of the region's history to believe that Israel would let the flotilla through

Wasn't it mentioned in that thread that previous ten or so flotillas were let through?

I am fairly confident that the people in charge had no such illusions and were looking for confrontation. These are the ones I referred to as evil.

Of course they were, much like the guys who drive around whalers in inflatable boats. They cannot actually lose, either they reach Gaza or they get shot (and it's shown afterwards they they didn't carry any weapon or anything terrorist-like. It's fairly obvious anyone with a brain would make sure there wasn't anything on board that could make them look bad) and become PR martyrs.

I applaud your optimism about the potential for peace soon, however, calling them evil for not trusting a peace process that has been stalled since forever and which nobody wants is going a bit far (I believe that thing about the new settlements during Biden's visit last time showed us how much it was worth).

A rhetoric stating that one deserves to be shot when risking one's life standing up to the man isn't worth much, it's a bit antithetical to what freedom means to me, it wouldn't feel out of place in the mouth of a random dictator supporter. (actually, isn't popular rebellion against the government the very reason the right to bear arms is in the US constitution?)

I'm really not sure Gaza's citizen would have been any better by waiting for people to stop "making noises", in the end. If allowing those guys the basic necessities is deemed too dangerous because anything can be turned into a weapon (or food for terrorists), then what? What happens? It seems that both sides are locked in a stance that only allows for the other side's genocide. And Israel is too half assed to do it all the way. Rattling the nest and actually forcing some attention on the problem while giving some weight to the Palestians (well, international support isn't worth much, but it's still that) in further negotiations can be productive. Israel doesn't negotiate when it's a position of unchallenged power, anyway.

Well, at least that's how it looks from the untutored eye of the ignorant layman.

Samalander: go to sleep, what people say on some forum isn't really of much importance at all.

[The Space Pope]

To the contrary - of course it will: it has escalated the violence, hardened the positions of the moderates, greatly increased the deterioration of the relashionship with Turkey and its capacity to play a meaningful role in the peace process, probably derailed the upcoming talks with the PA*, and if the protests in the north turn to violent riots, add that too. This has a lot of (negative) influence on everything but the Gaza blockade.

I think its important to note that this would have been the case in any confrontation, even without violence. That there were deaths means its gotten exponentially bigger in the media, but the underlying issues wouldn't have been any different if the ships had stares at eachother and sent unkindly worded morse code messages for a couple days in Israeli territorial waters until everyone got bored.

Thats the very, very, very tiny possibility of a pro. The cons vastly outweigh it, and they knew it.

You are sure they knew it?

It seems more the action of people who expect no change to come internally from Israel at all. Thus the hardening of positions within Israel isn't a con, it's an inevitability.

[Datepalm]

You are sure they knew it?

If they didn't then they're uninformed idiots who have no moral right to carry out any action in the region, any more than I do to engineer a confrontation with the Sri Lankan military and declare that i'm doing it in the name of Tamil liberation. Its disingenious anyway, since there were Israeli Knesset members on board and they at least should know what will and won't happen here. Of course, most of our other Knesset members are idiots, so why not these?

It seems more the action of people who expect no change to come internally from Israel at all. Thus the hardening of positions within Israel isn't a con, it's an inevitability.

It is now.

[Happy Ent]

It seems more the action of people who expect no change to come internally from Israel at all. Thus the hardening of positions within Israel isn't a con, it's an inevitability.

What a strange thing to say. There's a strong, large, active, visible peace movement in Israel. A two-state solution is pretty much the political default position. Why would you expect no change from Israel? It's a democracy, after all. Things change. The current right-wing hardliner government is to be fought, as all such governments are to be fought. But for internal Israeli politics, they couldn't have expected a better gift than this confrontation. As Datesalm points out, this whole issue helps the hardliners on both sides; another nail in the peace process's coffin. There was no other outcome, from the moment the ships decided to breach the blockade, only differences of degree. The useful idiots don't understand that, because they think the two sides in the conflict are Israel and "The Palestinians."

[fitheach]

Using lethal force is a felony if you go to use lethal force then.....wait for it .... you are a suspected felon. Thus lethal force can be used on you. To try to use lethal force and be seen by law enforcement makes you a suspected felon. I do not see the disconnect in understanding here. By the way when you show up on scene and see what a rock can do to someone then you may understand using a rock can be lethal force or at a minimum aggravated assault and battery.

You seem to not get the difference I'm laying out, between a person using lethal force against an officer/soldier to a person defending themselves against an officer/soldier. Maybe it's the same to you, I don't know. Just because an officer sees someone using lethal force doesn't mean they're the aggressor, they could be defending themselves. It's always best for an officer to understand the situation before shooting off the cannons.

So, the best scenario is to use any means necessary (like their brains) before pulling out the big guns.

And by the way, I have seen someone beat with a rock. I wasn't talking about what one civilian can do to another civilian, but a civilian with a rock against a officer with a gun. Obviously, it's not a even exchange. You were using the laws in your state to make a point about this post, I only tried to comment that the officer has to be sure the person is a felon. Just seeing the person with a weapon hitting another person is not grounds to shoot the person with the weapon dead, that can make for some serious legal issues for a police department if they acted in this manner.

So, get your pants out of a bunch, I was not attacking you (with a rock or any other weapon). :smoking:

[The Space Pope]

If they didn't then they're uninformed idiots who have no moral right to carry out any action in the region, any more than I do to engineer a confrontation with the Sri Lankan military and declare that i'm doing it in the name of Tamil liberation. Its disingenious anyway, since there were Israeli Knesset members on board and they at least should know what will and won't happen here. Of course, most of our other Knesset members are idiots, so why not these?

There were Knesset members on board? Damn, didn't read anything about that.

Also, why do they have "no moral right" in your mind? It seems there were at least a bunch of people who were or had ties to Palestinians.

What a strange thing to say. There's a strong, large, active, visible peace movement in Israel. A two-state solution is pretty much the political default position. Why would you expect no change from Israel?

History?

I mean, a basic cursory glance at the history of the conflict does not lead the average person to any sense of hope for it ending.

The peach movement may be large and strong and active, but I'd say it's not exactly visible to anyone not in Israel or immersed in Israeli politics. I don't think the people in Gaza, for instance, see anything serious about a peace movement.

Essentially, I don't think it's ridiculously to believe these people may see no real hope in Israel actually accomplishing peace on it's own.

[The Space Pope]

Also, one of the big questions now:

What is Israel gonna do with all the people they took into custody?

According to Swedish media, the Swedish detainees were given a choice of either voluntary immediate deportation or getting arrested, detained and prosecuted. At least 4 of them seem to have chosen the latter. It's believed they did this because the first option involves signing some sort of confession.

[Horza]

Samalander's doom cement is the one thing I will take from this thread.