Samalander Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 What ship randomly carries dozens of sling shots and iron clubs? There was clearly some premeditation going on. :agree: These were not "whatever was at hand". These were "whatever was meticulously prepared and stockpiled in advance".P.SDoom Cement is a highly unstable and dangerous substance.Caution is advised!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S John Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 I wouldn't want to go to start a fight with one, but a slingshot can fuck you up. You can easily kill small animals with slingshots if you know what you are doing, and I definitely wouldn't be keen on taking one between the eyes. But really, did they confront the IDF with fucking slingshots? Bizarre story.Anyway, just watching the fireworks here. :leaving: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Space Pope Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 :agree: These were not "whatever was at hand". These were "whatever was meticulously prepared and stockpiled in advance".Yes, they meticulously stockpiled scaffolding against the threat of being boarded.Man, you people are making up some crazy fake people here. A bunch of insane suicidal terrorists who's weapon of choice is construction materials and toys. Do they ride Unicorns into battle too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 They are exactly the type of weapons these "activists" wanted. Lethal enough to provoke the Israelis into using excessive force, but simple enough to maintain the pretext of innocence.I'm sure that we would find the same kind of stuff in most merchants. It's easy to make clubs out of replacements or construction material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzanth Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 So, they wanted to be shot and killed? Is that what your saying here? Pretty much, yes. I'm sure the individuals who were murdered didn't want to die. Few people do. But this played out pretty much exactly how I expect the flotilla's organizers were hoping for. Probably far better than many of them expected. The IDF played right into their hands, like fucking pawns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitheach Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 Pretty much, yes. I'm sure the individuals who were murdered didn't want to die. Few people do. But this played out pretty much exactly how I expect the flotilla's organizers were hoping for. Probably far better than many of them expected. The IDF played right into their hands, like fucking pawns.Because the IDF is a bunch of dumb guffs who don't know any better? Just simply went in there with their guns and was out maneuvered by wiley middle eastern types... Your argument has a bit of a slant. Your assuming this flotilla group is organised by terrorist masterminds who know exactly how the IDF will react and it went all according to plan- mmmmuwahahaha. Sorry, it's a simplistic and bent theory, and one that the media pushes at us- "terrorist masterminds" or "criminal masterminds"...Can't get this out of my head now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Space Pope Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 Well, the IDF isn't known for NOT having alot of civilian casualties to it's name or anything.But really, saying these guys were suicidal is ridiculous. More then likely, at most they expected to get their asses kicked by the IDF, not get their asses killed.The whole flotilla is essentially a game of chicken with Israel. Trying to force them to either let them through or send their military at them and cause a huge incident.When the IDF attacked the ships, most of these guys probably just grabbed whatever was handy and went to repel them.But seriously, I very very very much doubt they expected to be shot and killed.Like any form of protest ever, the point is to force the thing being protested to capitulate or to use force against you. And Israel played right into their hands, to tragic ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiko Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 Also, one of the big questions now:What is Israel gonna do with all the people they took into custody?According to Swedish media, the Swedish detainees were given a choice of either voluntary immediate deportation or getting arrested, detained and prosecuted. At least 4 of them seem to have chosen the latter. It's believed they did this because the first option involves signing some sort of confession. Since apparently they include a Swedish MP and a bunch of highly educated types, I don't see them falling for this.I actually wonder. Prosecuted on what grounds? Floggin’ the oggin till someone hits your noggin? Trials at Guantanamo Bay would look justified in comparison. At least some of those detainees where caught doing something. I don't think Israel will want to go that route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser_not_appearing_yet Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 I suspect the IDF were simply shocked that these protesters would attack them. I don't think the protesters were suicidal, but I can see a lot of angry men suddenly losing the plot and going for the Israeli soldiers, and once a couple go down, and protesters try and steal guns, the soldiers get trigger happy.This is the result, at least what seems the most likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightning Lord Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 480 detainedWhat are they being charged with? Certainly not everyone was involved in the violence. Is this a case of them being labeled "enemy combatants"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Space Pope Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 480 detainedWhat are they being charged with? Certainly not everyone was involved in the violence. Is this a case of them being labeled "enemy combatants"?Probably trying to decide what to do with them, who can be bullied into signing confessions and how long they can keep everyone on the boats stories from getting out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 What are they being charged with? Certainly not everyone was involved in the violence. Is this a case of them being labeled "enemy combatants"?I think it depends on 2 things: Nationality and involvement in violence.Anyone who has an Israeli nationality is obviously ours.I'm pretty sure any Palestinian found will also end up in our custody.Anyone else not involved in violence will probably be deported ASAP.The tricky part is what to do with foreign nationals (like Turks) who were involved in violence. I guess we will just have to wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightning Lord Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 I think it depends on 2 things: Nationality and involvement in violence.Anyone who has an Israeli nationality is obviously ours.I'm pretty sure any Palestinian found will also end up in our custody.Anyone else not involved in violence will probably be deported ASAP.The tricky part is what to do with foreign nationals (like Turks) who were involved in violence. I guess we will just have to wait and see.Will those who are to be deported be given airfare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 Will those who are to be deported be given airfare?I'm pretty sure the state of Israel picks up the tab... ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rane Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 One ship that lagged behind the others and therefor wasn't in last night's action apparently decided to keep moving forward and try to land in Gaza. Only heard about this in tabula gaza blog, but I been following this guy for years and I trust his information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Space Pope Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 I'm pretty sure the state of Israel picks up the tab... ;)Shit this is a good scam.I can visit the region, see the sites, then go protest in international waters and save on the return airfare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 One ship that lagged behind the others and therefor wasn't in last night's action apparently decided to keep moving forward and try to land in Gaza. Only heard about this in tabula gaza blog, but I been following this guy for years and I trust his information.This is not a secret. They have been reporting this on the news here since yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rane Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 This is not a secret. They have been reporting this on the news here since yesterday.Oh well, I get my news on the internet only, this was the first time I read about it. My bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 What ship randomly carries dozens of sling shots and iron clubs?Every ship carries dozens of iron clubs, if the items shown in that video are what we're counting as 'clubs'. They're clearly improvised weapons made from bits and pieces one would expect to find on a ship like that.As for the slingshots, there are one dozen, not 'dozens'. Perhaps twenty at most, it's hard to count. That's on a ship with 500 people, IIRC. Now, you do have a point in that I would not expect to find slingshots on a ship at all. So that's perhaps evidence of a handful of people on the ship bringing something with which they could assault and harass the IDF, if they tried to board. The gas masks are also perhaps suggestive either that some on board anticipated a confrontation, although they may also have been trying to bring them in for Palestinian activists to use. But this is a long, long, way from being evidence of the sort of large-scale, organised preparation for an assault on armed troops that people have been suggesting was going on. Frankly, I'd expect to find about that number of slingshots if I searched 500 random demonstrators on any protest march in any city in the UK. Individual protestors sometimes carry these things on their own initiative. None of this is, or can be spun as, proof that there was any organised and premeditated intent by a group such as Hamas to force a violent confrontation ending in deaths for PR purposes. Quite the reverse. Now, that doesn't mean that this didn't happen: but your interpretation of the evidence in the video is a real stretch. Those are real weapons. They are exactly the type of weapons these "activists" wanted. Lethal enough to provoke the Israelis into using excessive force, but simple enough to maintain the pretext of innocence.By definition, 'excessive force' is force exceeding that which is provoked. And if the Israelis used 'excessive force' that's nobody's responsibility but their own. If their reaction to this is shown to be 'excessive', no amount of slingshots can justify it. I am still reserving judgment on whether the deaths were unavoidable in the cause of rescuing the IDF soldiers, but I am sceptical, as one should always be when multiple fatalities are inflicted in a situation like this. Who authorised the use of lethal force? Was there really no alternative available to deal with the situation? And if there wasn't, isn't that a criticism of the IDF? I suspect that in the end, the story here is more about a cockup by the IDF, who turned a difficult situation into a disaster, than a conspiracy by Hamas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 Apparently there's an interesting precedent for this - with the shoe being on the other foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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