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Israeli Forces attack Aid Flotilla to Gaza


WhiteHaven

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Ok, here's what we now know about the detainees (from Israeli news sites):

The government really really wants all foreign nationals gone. I don't think they plan to prosecute any of them for violence. They are kicking them out as fast as the spinning door allows (even the wounded that can be moved).

16 people refuse to identify themselves in any way to authorities. It is unclear what will be done with them.

3 Israeli nationals are in custody and will probably be prosecuted for something.

1 Israeli MP was released to her home(immunity). If, however, charges will be levied against her in the future for this, she will have to ask the Knesset for a special immunity against prosecution, which I don't think they are in the mood to give.

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Why aren't they trying to prosecute the people that attacked the IDF?

Is it illegal to attack soldiers? I'm really not sure.

Besides, nobody wants messy drawn out trials and more media attention and the inevitable martyriotic melodramatic posturing that appears to be the defaul condition of western activists around here. (well, except said activists. But I don't care what they want. I'll reiterate - I don't think they should get a say.)

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Why aren't they trying to prosecute the people that attacked the IDF?

Since the incident took place in international waters, I doubt there is any legal jurisdiction for a criminal prosecution in an Israeli court.

That, and as Datepalm says I doubt the Israeli government wants to draw this issue out any further.,

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I have one question to all the people posting about this happening in international waters - would you be fine with it if it happened within the Israeli / Gaza waters?

Further, what difference does it make if they had planned weapons or improvised weapons on the spot. If you attack swarm attack a small number of armed personell you're gonna get shot - regardless who or where it happens.

If they had laid down their arms and raised the white flag before being boarded, my guess is that nobody would be killed. I have sympathy for Israel for sure, but even I know that (after watching the news the last 10 years and knowing a minute bit of history about this conflict) the Israelis don't fuck around. They mean business. People being so into this conflict that they call themselves activits, and board ships such as these ones, should definitely know that.

That leaves me to one conclusion, they knew what could happen, and they did it anyway. Be that on the activists themselves or the people pulling the strings behind them.

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480 detained

What are they being charged with? Certainly not everyone was involved in the violence. Is this a case of them being labeled "enemy combatants"?

According to some Swedish news they will be charged with entering Israel illegally.

To me this seems more than a bit odd since they were (illegally the consensus seems to be) boarded in international waters and brought into Israel by the IDF itself.

Might just be a rumor. But considering how bizzare this entire mess is who knows.

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I have one question to all the people posting about this happening in international waters - would you be fine with it if it happened within the Israeli / Gaza waters?

Personally, no, I think this point is relatively unimportant. The main issues for me are whether the IDF's response was proportionate, whether use of lethal force was necessary, whether it was properly authorised, boring stuff like that. I am agnostic about the legal arguments about territorial waters, largely because whether this was technically illegal on those grounds strikes me as pretty much a moot point. Particularly as the legality of the blockade even within Israeli territorial waters has been questioned.

Further, what difference does it make if they had planned weapons or improvised weapons on the spot.

I think you're asking the wrong people: it's those who're supporting the IDF action who seem to regard it as a key point.

Their thesis appears to be that some or all of those on board this ship set out all along to conduct a premeditated assault on the IDF in order to create exactly the reaction we are now seeing. (Indeed, thisis pretty much the narrative the Israeli government have been pushing all along.) So far as I understand, this argument is intended to deflect the blame from the IDF by implying that the incident was basically staged by a terrorist organisation. Media-wise, this is obviously a completely different kettle of fish from a few hotheaded activists grabbing whatever was to hand in the heat of the moment for what was arguably self-defence.

It remains unclear, I think, which was the case, but it's clearly important to the perception of this incident. It may also be important in judging whether use of lethal force was indeed necessary, depending on the exact sequence of events.

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According to some Swedish news they will be charged with entering Israel illegally.

Israeli news sites insist that everyone that isn't:

1. An Israeli citizen

2. Seriously wounded

3. Unidentified

Will be deported by week's end.

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Further, what difference does it make if they had planned weapons or improvised weapons on the spot. If you attack swarm attack a small number of armed personell you're gonna get shot - regardless who or where it happens.

If they had laid down their arms and raised the white flag before being boarded, my guess is that nobody would be killed.

Actually it being in international waters makes quite a bit of difference legally.

The activists seen beating and stabbing IDF commandos may be perfectly within their rights to do so when illegally boarded by armed personell intent on taking control of their vessel. No different than being attacked by pirates.

Inside Israeli territorial water Israel would have a much stronger case. In international waters they are pretty clearly in the wrong no matter how much government spokespersons insist on the contrary.

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Israeli news sites insist that everyone that isn't:

1. An Israeli citizen

2. Seriously wounded

3. Unidentified

Will be deported by week's end.

Seems much more plausible to me.

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So far as I understand, this argument is intended to deflect the blame from the IDF by implying that the incident was basically staged by a terrorist organisation. Media-wise, this is obviously a completely different kettle of fish from a few hotheaded activists grabbing whatever was to hand in the heat of the moment for what was arguably self-defence.

I don't think it needs to go that far, personally. I don't justify the assault on the ships, and I don't support the things floating in the first place. What I am absoloutely certain of is that they were intending a confrontation. (and again, if they weren't, they're idiots, becuase this is obviously what was going to happen, if only because the IDF told them that this is what would happen) and having arrived at it, i'm not sure how the IDF could have acted differently - the only decision open to them that would have avoided it - just let the ships pass - wasn't theirs to make, it was the goverments.

I'm essentially in the cheery position of thinking everyone is guilty.

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If they were expecting peace activists/protesters, why did the IDF board a ship that was in international waters that hadn't breach the blockade yet? Was this a necessary preemptive strike against activists/protesters?

Samalander's assertion that the peaceful Israeli soldiers boarded the boats peacefully because they were expected a bunch of hippies with flowers in their hair is interesting, because it doesn't explain why they rappalled onto the boat from helicopters (the fastest transport possible) under cover of night. If they were not expecting resistance, they could have boarded the ships by daylight a few hours later after they had actually reached the blockade line, and turned the ships back with far greater legal authority.

Also, how is it an ambush? They see him repelling down to the ship and they met him when he landed.

Not only that, but videos from the boat itself shown on the BBC show the people on the boat observing the helicopter coming closer for several minutes before the attack, plenty of time to grab implements to hands to repel the boarders. In addition, the video also picks up a PA announcement from the captain instructing the passengers not to resist because of the Israelis' overwhelming firepower (which obviously wasn't listened to).

If we are in the mood for conspiracy theories, the question isn't why the people on the boats had slingshots to hand to, erm, repel commandos, but why said commandos boarded the ship under-armed, with no warning shots being fired over the ship's bows etc beforehand. One afflicted with a suitable case of paranoia might conclude that the Israelis were spoiling for a provocation to resort to force as soon as possible.

but you'd have to be extremely foolish and/or supremely ignorant of the region's history to believe that Israel would let the flotilla through

Or you'd be extremely well-informed about the region's history, given that Israel has permitted aid flotillas through before.

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The flotilla wasn't just bringing food and Armageddoncrete. They were bringing all sorts of supplies.

Like toys. Toys like slingshots.

And what iron clubs? I saw a bunch of tools and knives and shit.

Close up footage of Marmara passengers attacking the troops with batons:

Peace activists stabbing soldier repeatedly:

IHH activists aboard the Marmara chanting anti-Jewish muslim war-cries (sounds like pro-Israeli propaganda but its actually true):

While the IDF faced them with bloody paintball guns at first.

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This article on the BBC website does a good job of summarising some of the points I think are still key, and updating the facts.

The interception took place about 40 miles (60km) off the Gaza coast, some 25 miles beyond the formal limits of the maritime blockade Israel is maintaining on Gaza.

A maritime blockade is a legal device under international law. It has to have a reason (Israel's is that Hamas would import arms), it has to be formally declared (it was) and it has to be enforced (it is).

By intercepting beyond the blockade limits, Israel took a risk that the action would be challenged under international law, but the issue is at least debatable.

Israel argues that the flotilla clearly intended to try to run the blockade, and indeed the lead ship said its destination was Gaza when told to stop over a radio channel by the Israelis in the formalities at the start of the action.

Five of the six ships in the flotilla did stop, but the main one, the Mavi Marmara, did not.

Warnings having predictably failed, the Israelis decided to use force.

It did so using members of its seaborne special forces, Flotilla 13, with helicopters and speed boats.

There has also been debate within Israel as to whether this was the right unit to use. It is trained for combat, not crowd control.

The commandos were unable to rush the bridge as planned and a second troop was sent in from another helicopter. By now about 30 activists were confronting about 30 troops on deck.

But something more serious was happening. The reporter states that the protesters "attempted to wrest away [the soldiers'] weapons". They got hold of one handgun, he says, when one soldier, seen on the video, was thrown from the upper deck on to the lower.

The soldiers, who had started to use stun grenades, then asked for permission to use their firearms. They were given the go-ahead.

However, this is not seen on the video. Indeed, it stops just as one soldier can be seen levelling his pistol at the protesters. One wonders what happened next. Why did the video stop there?

The Israelis claim that the activists got hold of two pistols and must have fired them as their magazines were found to be empty when recovered. Ben Yishai also quotes one commando as saying that the Israeli forces fired at someone holding a rifle, but no such rifle has been produced.

What is not clear at this stage is why so many died and in what circumstances. Did they all die on deck? In a group or one by one?

We do not see any of this on the video and one must ask whether any such video exists and if it does, then why it has not been produced. The reporter says the troops fired at "the rioters' legs". That may have been so, but it must have gone beyond that as well.

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Because the IDF is a bunch of dumb guffs who don't know any better? Just simply went in there with their guns and was out maneuvered by wiley middle eastern types... Your argument has a bit of a slant. Your assuming this flotilla group is organised by terrorist masterminds who know exactly how the IDF will react and it went all according to plan- mmmmuwahahaha. Sorry, it's a simplistic and bent theory, and one that the media pushes at us- "terrorist masterminds" or "criminal masterminds"...

Can't get this out of my head now...

No, not the majority of the flotilla. Indeed, curiousely, 5 out of 6 ships were unharmed and there was no incident. In the 6th, controlled by the IHH brandishing swords, knives, batons going on a lynching spree of IDF troops, yes, tragedy ensues. Ironically, the first IDF troops to land carried paintball guns.. .they were expecting a far different scenario. Only after they were being bashed to a pulp did they get authorization to open fire.

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it doesn't explain why they rappalled onto the boat from helicopters (the fastest transport possible) under cover of night.

I expect they just wanted to minimise the opportunity for not particularly media friendly shots of Israeli soldiers storming an aid ship.

I don't think it's reasonable at this stage to say that either the organisers of the flotilla or Israel planned for any violent clashes. There have been several similar attempts to breach the blockade in the past with no injuries.

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