Melisandre's secret agenda

[Dougsmum]

Just what does this woman want? She's playing Stannis, he is not Azor Ahai. The sword he has is an imposter according to Maester Aemon. So what exactly is going on here? I can't wait to read her POV. I'm sure it will be quite revealing.

[AquariumDrinker]

She knows what is coming, and is trying to stop it. She will be invaluable in the coming war with The Others.

[undertow]

I honestly think that she's as clueless as the rest of us. She pegs Stannis not because he's the correct choice, but because he's the most politcally feasible choice. For a while, I thought Thoros would sort everything out, but I think she'll end up choosing Jon Snow, which will cause a wee bit of an excuse for a conflict.

[nategator]

I think she think she knows more than she actually knows, which she is starting to realize. She probably is thinking Stannis is a dead end, Jon is promising, and maybe knows a little about Dany through flame vision. But she is trying to make do with the tools she has in front of her.

SPOILERS

References from the readings suggest that Dany has a red priest as well. It sounds like the order is trying to guide potential candidates waiting for prophecy to run its course and indicate who their champion will be against the Great Other. Or wait, maybe that was the plot behind Lost...

[Happy Ent]

I’m convinced she’s exactly what she claims to be.

She is the Gandalf of A Song of Ice and Fire: powerful wizard with superiour knowledge of the backstory, uniquely understands the threat posed by the Big Evil on the Other Side of the Mountains. She backs the true king in exile to get his kingdom back and defeat said evil.

Of course, GRRM deliberately subverts the trope in the following ways:

(1) We meet Melisandre first through the eyes of her political opponents at court (Cressen, Davos). This would correspond to Lord of the Rings having POVs by Denethor or Grima Wormtongue, or maybe Saruman, which focus on the nasty, arrogant, power-player, drug-addict sides of Gandalf.

(2) Melisandre picked the wrong “Aragorn.” This corresponds to Gandalf falsely backing some other random Numenorean, who Elrond happens to have give the Ring of Barahir, and scheming to put him on the Gondorian throne.

[Dougsmum]

It will be interesting to find out how Stannis went about contacting Asshai for the service of a shadow binder. Did he have to pay someone? Sign a contract? What inspired him to send for Melisandre in the first place? Or maybe she ensorcelled him from accross the world? Soooooo many questions!

[Snowmelter]

I think Mel wants badly to be in the center of the upcoming war with the Others (which she clearly knows about). She is arrogant enough to believe she has all the answers and she is twisting her knowledge of the future with her power as a shadowbinder to make things come to pass in the way she envisions. I don't think the shadowbabies are of R'hollor, but of Ashaii. To put it bluntly, I think she is a drama queen who very much wants to have a starring role in the saving of the world and will do anything she feels is necessary to put herself in that role. She is not above throwing over Stannis for Jon if she thinks that will further her plans. Sadly, she is probably very mistaken and will probably do much more harm than good. Maybe we will get a POV when she realizes this exact thing. Of course, I could be totally wrong.

[Dougsmum]

Burning people alive, even criminals and prisiners of war is horrible. I hope she gets her come-uppance, it had better be good! Maybe Davos will find another way to thwart her, or perhaps Davos and Jon will start a dialogue together regarding how evil she is.

[Lord Varys]

Forsaking Stannis for Jon would be a huge thing, and contradicting everything Melisandre has preached until now. She may be able to convince some of her followers that she was mistaken, and some new sign showed her the truth, but all the guys who are in this for the political stuff will be pretty much irritated. After all, Jon Snow is only the Lord Commanders of the Night's Watch. He is completely unable to reward any of his followers with lands or titles. And certainly Stannis and even Selyse and the other Florent men - especially Axell Florent - would have no, or at least a worse place in this new regime. Being the Queen of Azor Ahai was something for Selyse Florent, being just a follower of a Red Priestess who has just yet discovered another savior might not be as interesting.

I'd be go as far as declare that Stannis and Melisandre are bound to each other. If any deserts the other, both of them will suffer severe blows to their cause. Even Melisandre's most devoted followers will not follow a woman into battle, not even her, nor will they be able to convince other people that they should serve her.

And then there is Jon, of course, who most likely will not let Melisandre draw him into political power play beyond the needs of the Night's Watch.

At least, if she does not discover the truth about his parentage. And as of now, I consider Melisandre of Asshai as the person whose chances to do this are the highest. She might not know anything about him, but she may very well have visions that reveal the truth to her.

What she is going to do when she finds out that he is Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son, and thus maybe - if he is trueborn - the rightful King and the true Azor Ahai is difficult to say:

1) She might decide to kill him without telling anyone anything to prevent that people start doubting her - Stannis might not let her kill him, even if her learns the truth about him, as he apparently starts to like him.

2) She might reveal his parentage, but style him a bastard nonetheless, thus enabling herself to use his blood for her magic stuff.

3) She might forsake Stannis and choose Jon as her new Azor Ahai, and may declare him King of Westeros, too.

4) She might tell Stannis and Jon privately what she has discovered, and the three of them decide together how they are going to handle the threats of the Others.

[Loras]

I think that Melisandre is the definition of a self-fulfilling prophecy. She has seen Stannis lifting a sword, that she interpreted to be ‘Lightbringer’, and therefore she has worked to make that happen. I think that with her scrying abilities, she sees only a picture and it is up to her to interpret the vision and more importantly make that vision happen.

I guess what I am saying is that the moment that Stannis lifts “lightbringer” is pivotal to her story, but she has not necessarily interpreted it correctly. It is a real catch-22 situation: was she necessary for Stannis to become AA, or has she manipulated the course of events in such a way that it has come to pass.

I think that she has parts of the puzzle – but has given herself artistic license to interpret the visions and has therefore set herself down the wrong path... or did that HAVE to happen so that she would end up at the Wall and meet Jon Snow?

[Happy Ent]

I think that Melisandre is the definition of a self-fulfilling prophecy. She has seen Stannis lifting a sword, that she interpreted to be 'Lightbringer', and therefore she has worked to make that happen.

Well, we don’t know the details of the prophecy she’s working under, but I don’t think she is basing her judgement on her own lightbringer stunt.

Stannis is (1) the true – but exiled – heir of the Westerosi throne, (2) the prince or ruler of dragonstone, (3) whose ascendency or birth is announced by a red comet. These things fit Stannis. Melisandre can be forgiven for not guessing that another person (Dany) fits even better.

[nategator]

Until we read her POV, I say the most likely interpretation of Melisandre is a person with some power and information, but not as much as she would like to think. Like most religious figures she is quick to interpret almost everything according to her world viewpoint, but we have pretty strong indications of other religions having some influences as well, particularly the old gods in the north.

I think that her agenda is as she says - she is trying to rally the people against the threat of the Others. But since she is neither omnipotent not omnipresent, she is unable to accomplish all of her goals and makes mistakes. More importantly, she seems cynical enough to overstate her abilities and knowledge as well as use glamor to fool the less educated (ex: Lightbringer) She is also very much an ends justify the means type of person, not hesitating to murder children for the greater good.

Her religion is also interesting. Not unlike fire it is capable of accomplishing miraculous things, but seems to consume innocents and it's own followers at the same time. I would say that its influence on Cat has been for the worse.

It will be interesting to see if Mel is able to spread her religion in the north, where her tendency to set things aflame seems to run contrary to the worship of the old gods with the weirwoods. The North nobility seems to be more religious than the South, so their reaction against Mellisandre will be interesting. Also, Jon seems to be already "claimed" by the old gods, with his swearing of his oaths under the weirwood and relationship with Ghost. Notably, Ghost only reappears after he rejects Stannis's offer and conclusively reaffirms his oats to the old gods.

[Yakman]

She knows what is coming, and is trying to stop it. She will be invaluable in the coming war with The Others.

i concur.

although she is wrong that Stannis is Azor Ahai reborn, she isn't wrong in the broader sense--she knows the Others are Evil, that they are coming, and that mankind must unite behind a great champion to defend the world.

I doubt that she has any sort of "hidden agenda"--she's put herself so far out there publicly that any secondary agenda just plain isn't going to work.

Nor did she latch onto Stannis because he was the King's heir or that he was the most talented man in Westeros (because neither is true). If either of those things were the case, she'd have gone over to Jon when she met him at the Wall. but she didn't.

note also that Maester Aemon did not directly confront her as a liar or a fraud when he discovered that she was wrong. he didn't tell Jon or Sam to do so either (as far as we know so far). I got the feeling that he pitied her more than feared her.

[Blue Steel]

Melisandre is either an Other or working for the Others.

One of the most important hints so far is easily missed is when she kills Renly, the room turns cold, the same kind of cold that is associated with the appearance of the Others whenever they show up.

This detail is brought up again in A Storm of Swords when Jamie and Briene are talking about the rumors that Briene killed Renly. On page 129 of the hardcover Briene says, "The candles guttered and the air grew cold -" In the next paragraph, Jamie says, "No, no, it wasn't me, it was a shadow, a terrible cold shadow."

Then, there is the whole Night King story not to mention Melisandre's questionable morals.

[Lord Varys]

Not Melisandre killed Renly, it was a shadow of Stannis created by her from Stannis's semen, or 'life force'. That is a difference, and despite the fact that Melisandre the real woman emanates unnatural heat, no one ever said that shadows created by a shadowbinder (Melisandre of Asshai is a priestess of R'hllor and a shadowbinder of Asshai; people tend to forget that) are warm and not cold as hell.

The story of the Night's King and Stannis and Mel both includes creepy female figures, but that's it. GRRM might have put the story into the tale to compare it to the relationship between Stannis and Mel, but it is obvious that the Night's King femme fatale was either a wight or an Other, whereas Melisandre is despite her creepiness no zombie.

She might prove to be Stannis's ruin, but if she is, I don't believe for a second she will be because she has worked with the Others the whole time. The hints we got is that her rigid world view might not only cause political problems with the Northmen and wildlings (burning weirwood trees makes you no friends up there), but may play outright into the Others' hands as some Old Gods and Children of the Forest magical stuff (for example the Wall itself) are one of the few real things that keep the Others at bay. So if you destroy that, you burn the very house you are living in. We have learned that Stannis intends to inspect the ancient gate Sam discovered under the Nightfort. One can only hope that Mel is not going to burn it.

On the other hand, Mel's powers might cause some real problems for the Others as well. At least, she was more than a match for poor Varamyr and Orell the Eagle, and if some form of warging is the basis for the Others creating wights, she might prove to be pretty devastating for them. I already imagine Mel standing on the Wall looking down on legions and legions of burning wights...

But if Mel falls into the hands of the Others she could become a really nasty sight. Somehow I'd be even more afraid of a Melisandre who has gone as cold as she is now hot...

[nategator]

where does it explicitly say in aSoIaF that Mel is a shadowbinder? Or is this conjecture/theory? Thanks

[Snowmelter]

where does it explicitly say in aSoIaF that Mel is a shadowbinder? Or is this conjecture/theory? Thanks

I don't think it's explicitly stated that she's a shadowbinder, but there are hints. I don't think the shadowbabies she pumps out using Stannis' lifeforce are of R'hllor. The reason I think this is because we have another POV of a R'hllor worshiper who certainly do NOT use shadow magic. If Uncat could murder Freys with shadow magic.... The not so fat anymore red priest doesn't use it. That is not to say that red priests as a rule don't, but if it were possible, don't you think dude would have used it to help the BWB?

[Lord Varys]

It is explicitly stated repeatedly when GRRM talks about Melisandre, or reintroduces her at he beginning of a new book. The very first time it is even mentioned in AGoT when Tywin tells Tyrion about the Varys told concerning the shadowbinders Stannis is hiring on Dragonstone.

It is stated, for instance, in Cressen's Prologue in ACoK: 'Melisandre of Asshai, sorceress, shadowbinder, and priestess to R'hllor (...)'.

It will be interesting to learn if Melisandre - who is 'of Asshai', a land far in the far east where R'hllorism, which seems to be a religion of the Free Cities, may not be a dominating religion - was a shadowbinder before she became a Red Priest, or vice versa. I'd argue for the former, as she likely is called 'Meliasandre of Asshai' because she is Asshai'i by birth, and AGoT already established that the shadowbinders are strong cult/school of sorcerers in Asshai and the Shadowlands. So it may be that converted to R'hllorism later in her life - thus maybe proving right the prejudice that converts tend to be more orthodox and fanatic than believers who are born into belief system.

It may still be possible that a Red Priest can do the stuff Melisandre does (i.e. giving birth to shadow babes); at least if she is right that R'hllor is the 'God of Fire and Shadow' (and I doubt that she is lying there). After all, we know that Thoros of Myr was not that pious a priest before he realized that his prayers and ritual started to work, so it is possible that he just has no knowledge of the more difficult and secret rituals of R'hllorism.

The more profane craft of flame-watching Thoros is able to perform, as is Stannis, too, and, at least according to his own words, Axell Florent.

On the other hand, creating a shadow to do your bidding seems exactly like the type of thing a sorcerer called a 'shadowbinder' might do. And the way Melisandre created the two shadows - by taking away life-force from Stannis - shows similarities to the ways of a certain Mirri Maz Duur who was schooled by the shadowbinders of Asshai.

[Drowned Princess]

When Jon goes in the cage lift with her at the Wall at the end of aSoS, he asks if she's cold and she says "Never. The Lord's fire lives within me, Jon Snow. Feel," and he does and she's super warm. Then she says "That is how life should feel. Only death is cold". Hence her shadow babies bring the cold with them because they bring death?

I would also put this forward in support of the Mel-is-dead-and-brought-back-by-fiery-kiss theory...

[feardeathbywater]

where does it explicitly say in aSoIaF that Mel is a shadowbinder? Or is this conjecture/theory? Thanks

Near the end of AGoT, someone (a Lannister, I think) discusses the rumours about Stannis: hiring sellsails, brought in a shadowbinder from Asshai, etc. That plus the whole binding shadows thing she does in ACoK.

It will be interesting to learn if Melisandre - who is 'of Asshai', a land far in the far east where R'hllorism, which seems to be a religion of the Free Cities, may not be a dominating religion - was a shadowbinder before she became a Red Priest, or vice versa.

I was under the impression that the whole R'hllor thing started in Asshai and expanded west. Hasn't everyone from Asshai been associated with the Red God in some way? Granted, this amounts to all of two people (Melisandre and Quaithe), but the shadow thing explained by Mel (to Davos) as being religious rather than purely magical.

What is a shadow, after all? Could it be nothing more than an embodiment of the intentions or desires of it's "father"? If so, the Boltons/Freys/Lannisters etc. had better hope Jon and Melisandre don't join forces...