Melisandre's secret agenda

[Knight of the CIC]

I think that Melisandre is the definition of a self-fulfilling prophecy. She has seen Stannis lifting a sword, that she interpreted to be ‘Lightbringer’, and therefore she has worked to make that happen. I think that with her scrying abilities, she sees only a picture and it is up to her to interpret the vision and more importantly make that vision happen.

I guess what I am saying is that the moment that Stannis lifts “lightbringer” is pivotal to her story, but she has not necessarily interpreted it correctly. It is a real catch-22 situation: was she necessary for Stannis to become AA, or has she manipulated the course of events in such a way that it has come to pass.

I think that she has parts of the puzzle – but has given herself artistic license to interpret the visions and has therefore set herself down the wrong path... or did that HAVE to happen so that she would end up at the Wall and meet Jon Snow?

The self-fulfilling prophecy part is funny because in ACOK she sees Stannis's army destroyed in KL by a dude in green armor so she tells Stannis to attack Storm's End and kills Renly...and everything happens the way it did in the flames because of her intervention. There was a Nicholas Cage movie (pretty average imo) where he can look into the future but he says "as soon as you look into the future, it changes".

The comparison of Gandalf to Mel was really cool also, I never thought of it that way. I guess Maggy the Frog is GRRM's way of laying down the Curse of the Noldor (or of the Cersei lol).

[Lord Varys]

Melisandre refers to a version of the Azor Ahai prophecy which she read in Asshai in some scrolls, but the few Asshai'i we meet besides Melisandre - Quaithe from the Shadow, and some guys Dany oversees in Vaes Dothrak - don't appear to have connections to the Red God. Actually, Quaithe seems to be more typical for the guys over there, as she is a shadowbinder only, and also wears the typical wooden mask of the Shadow people. Melisandre apparently does not have this mask.

If I remember correctly we don't meet any Red Priests in Qarth, or the Ghiscari slaver cities - indicating that R'hllorism is not that prominent that far in the east (although it may still be possible that R'hllorism originated in Asshai, and then - for some occult reason - did not take very deep roots in - relative - near Qarth, Ghiscar, or Valyria, but I don't believe that).

We only have confirmed Red Temples in Oldtown, Pentos, Braavos, Lys, Myr, and likely in the other Free Cities as well.

I'd even argue that the Red God only spread through the former valyrian colonies after the Doon of Valyria, as the valyrians apparently had their own gods - Aegon's dragons were named after three of them.

[GrimTuesday]

We only have confirmed Red Temples in Oldtown, Pentos, Braavos, Lys, Myr, and likely in the other Free Cities as well.

I dont remember any mention of a temple in Oldtown.

Anyway I feel that Melisandre is one of those people who are lucky in their predictions and are able to talk their way out of it if they are wrong. she seems like she is kind of trying act like she knows what she is doing but she has only figured out how to do some of this recently like Thoros and is trying to make herself seem like she knows more then she really does. Everyone know that Renly wears green armor so it could be just some lucky guess, and with the uncertain political climet it would not be unthinkable for the three opposing kings to be killed.

[Drowned Princess]

R'hollor temple in Oldtown is mentioned in Pate's prologue in aFfC, he can hear their singing: "Each morning at first light the red priests gathered to welcome the sun outside their modest wharfide temple". They ask R'hollor to save them from the darkness, because "the night is dark and full of terrors", so they celebrate when the sun comes up.

[feardeathbywater]

Anyway I feel that Melisandre is one of those people who are lucky in their predictions and are able to talk their way out of it if they are wrong.

If so, she gets lucky a lot. And she's not the only one making correct predictions using pyromancy.

she seems like she is kind of trying act like she knows what she is doing but she has only figured out how to do some of this recently like Thoros and is trying to make herself seem like she knows more then she really does.

Thoros is as surprised as anyone that the rituals have started working (again?) Melisandre we see primarily in her shadowbinder role, not reviving people the way Thoros does. She seems not only to know what she is doing but to know that it will work. If the recent return of magic is across the board (and the FM have certainly been using their illusion techniques to full effect), at least give her credit for adapting quickly.

Everyone know that Renly wears green armor so it could be just some lucky guess, and with the uncertain political climet it would not be unthinkable for the three opposing kings to be killed.

She also saw the possibility of Stannis being killed by Renly's men at Storm's End, which justification she gives to Davos for her sending the shadow assassin. It does lend credence to the statement she gives to Jon Snow about being able to see visions but not necessarily understanding them.

Not sure exactly what a climet is...but political climate notwithstanding that was a damn good guess, even if she and her big red buddy didn't have a hand in them. And who can say that they didn't? We don't know whether any of the gods in the story exist or not.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

On the relative time the Rh'llorism has been practised in Asshai compared to the Free Cities, it's pretty obvious that Asshai wins easily. The Red priests are in Braavos now, but Braavos was founded by the Moonsingers, a different religion altogether. Likewise in Qohor, as of aFfC the Red Priests rioted and attempted to burn the Black Goat, which is the idol of the state religion of Qohor. We have mention of a theocracy of bearded priests in Norvos, and worship of a love goddess in Lys, and in old Valyria hundreds of religions were practiced by all the slaves who brought their gods with them...but the Targaryens named their gods Balerion, Vhagar, and Meraxes after gods.

None of those gods are Rh'llor, whose followers consider them to be his enemy. The overwhelming probability is that the Red Faith is expanding in the Free Cities (and now in Westeros as well), not that it is long established there. Compare that to Mel's reference to her faith in Asshai:

"In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

Therefore Rh'llorism existed in Asshai in ancient times. Later she refers to the prophecy of Azor Ahai's return being 5,000 years old, though it's not explicitly stated that this is the same prophecy from the ancient Asshai'i books. But in a world where the Astapori brag about how Ghis was an empire while the Valyrians were still fucking sheep,and 300 year old Harrenhal is a baby among thousand year old Westerosi castles, "ancient" most likely means thousands, not mere hundreds of years. The missionary zeal of the Red God's servants in the west, otoh, suggests that it is relatively new there, and far from fully established there.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

(double post)

[Lord Varys]

Other-in-Law,

thank for citing the passage.

But the fact that Melisandre does not talk about R'hllor in this very passage, strengthen my belief that we don't need to assume the Azor Ahai prophecy has any inherent connection to the very heart of R'hllorism, and its mythology.

It is entirely possible that Melisandre read stuff in ancient books in Asshai that has nothing to do with the belief in the Red God. After all, Quaithe of the Shadow is interested in Daenerys, too, and despite being from Asshai and having insight in the contents of the prophecy, she has not connected the prophesied savior to a god called R'hllor.

I found it always irritating that a religious fundamentalist like Melisandre should refer to a savior not only foretold by her religion, but by the valyrians/Targaryens as well. After all, if we know something about Melisandre, then that she believes that gods who are not R'hllor are the Great Other.

So the natural thing is to assume that the core of Melisandre's cult she builds up around Stannis is a thing of R'hllorism.

But exactly that is not the case! Melisandre may be Priestess of R'hllor, but that does not mean that she got her knowledge about Azor Ahai/the promised prince from R'hllor mythology.

Vice versa, it would be rather strange to assume that the Targaryens would look for a promised savior because of prophecies made by a religion they don't believe in. There have been no hints whatsoever indicating a connection between R'hllorism and Valyria/House Targaryen.

If I had to guess, I'd argue that R'hllorism is a rather new religious movement, that is largely based on older texts and traditions. That would also go along with the fact that it is an expanding religion, which aggressively missionizes and fights other belief systems (not only Melisandre does this, but other Red Priests as well; even the pretty harmless Thoros had build a solid basis of followers: Gendry, for example, is now pretty pious, and has no love left for the Seven).

[it is also possible that different cultures have different prophecies about one and the same savior, but somehow it seems that, for example, Maester Aemon and Melisandre do now about whom they speak, so it seems that both are familiar with each other's source material.]

[Guest Other-in-Law]

But the fact that Melisandre does not talk about R'hllor in this very passage, strengthen my belief that we don't need to assume the Azor Ahai prophecy has any inherent connection to the very heart of R'hllorism, and its mythology.

Eh, it seems to me that Azor Ahai and Rh'llor go hand in hand, like Jesus and the Judaeo-Christian god. Sallador Saan was clearly familiar with the Azor Ahai story, so I doubt it's exclusive to Asshai and not part of Rh'llorism in the Free Cities. Thoros speaking of AA would really clinch that, but I don't recall him doing so offhand.

It is entirely possible that Melisandre read stuff in ancient books in Asshai that has nothing to do with the belief in the Red God. After all, Quaithe of the Shadow is interested in Daenerys, too, and despite being from Asshai and having insight in the contents of the prophecy, she has not connected the prophesied savior to a god called R'hllor.

Quaithe is primarily from the Shadowlands (thus the mask) though she's referred to as being from both the Shadowlands and from Asshai (I like to compare this to a Scotsman in Korea, who the locals may think of as an Englishman, even if he only lived in England for a few years). It could be that Asshai overwhelmingly worships Rh'llor while the Shadowlands do not...aside from being neighbors, it's hard to tell what exactly their relationship is...age-old enemies? Suzerain and subject? Economic partners but political rivals? Could be almost anything.

I found it always irritating that a religious fundamentalist like Melisandre should refer to a savior not only foretold by her religion, but by the valyrians/Targaryens as well. After all, if we know something about Melisandre, then that she believes that gods who are not R'hllor are the Great Other.

Yeah, someone who either rejects evidence or claims it actually proves her right, through some tortuous logic (like her use of cold shadows really being a holy thing of the god of heat and light rather than the god of cold and darkness :stillsick: ) is pretty annoying.

But exactly that is not the case! Melisandre may be Priestess of R'hllor, but that does not mean that she got her knowledge about Azor Ahai/the promised prince from R'hllor mythology.

Hmm... I don't see why the core of her theology isn't sound Rh'llorianism, aside from the suspicious shadow magic.

Vice versa, it would be rather strange to assume that the Targaryens would look for a promised savior because of prophecies made by a religion they don't believe in. There have been no hints whatsoever indicating a connection between R'hllorism and Valyria/House Targaryen.

I agree that the Targaryens were never really Rh'llor followers, maybe never even heard of him before Thoros came over. But I don't think the Targaryen prophecies are the same as the Asshai'i ones. They may be very similar in content, may even be about the same person or events, but I don't think they have the same provenance. Marwyn's Book of Lost Books had a fragment from a 1,400 year old prophecy by Aenar Targaryen's maiden daughter...that could be the source of all the Targaryen PtwP stuff (which is explicitly valyrian rather than Asshai'i, since the misinterpretation of the gender of the PtwP was due to a translation of dragon, iirc)

If I had to guess, I'd argue that R'hllorism is a rather new religious movement, that is largely based on older texts and traditions. That would also go along with the fact that it is an expanding religion, which aggressively missionizes and fights other belief systems (not only Melisandre does this, but other Red Priests as well; even the pretty harmless Thoros had build a solid basis of followers: Gendry, for example, is now pretty pious, and has no love left for the Seven).

I had always figured that it was a very old religion that only recently expanded westward, but this seems quite possible as well...a new religion synthesising elements from older religions or histories. Interesting idea.

[it is also possible that different cultures have different prophecies about one and the same savior, but somehow it seems that, for example, Maester Aemon and Melisandre do now about whom they speak, so it seems that both are familiar with each other's source material.]

Maester Aemon is definitely familiar with Mel's sources (at least in a broad sense) since he gave Jon some recommended reading from the Jade Compendium, about the legends of the far east. Mel, though...I'm not convinced that she was familiar with the Targaryen or First Man lore (why did Davos have to suggest going to the Wall? Why didn't she come up with that?), instead she may have just been bluffing about having all the answers. Like, after hearing about something for the very first time: "Oh, yes. That's nothing more than blah blah blah".

[Dougsmum]

From what I gather of Melisandre's dialogues she sounds very sure of herself. She is in Westeros to accomplish something great, and maybe she is not above faking it here and there and flattering Stannis in order to get to where she wants to be. I don't mean that she needs to fake anything, but in order to solidify Stannis and Co. she had to put on a show and work up a Lightbringer for Stannis to wave around. Ha! And blind old Maester Aemon found the flaw in her plan. So I think Stannis is a stepping stone for Mel, and she is looking around for the next man to latch on to. What if Stannis dies somehow? Then Selyse would be Queen and it would not seem so odd to follow a woman into battle. Just a thought.

[A wilding]

What if Stannis dies somehow? Then Selyse would be Queen and it would not seem so odd to follow a woman into battle. Just a thought.

Actually, as far as Stannis' followers are concerned, Shireen would become Queen if Stannis died, not Selyse who has absolutely no claim. Of course, with Shireen a minor, a regent would have to be appointed. I wonder if Stannis has specified anyone for the job ...

[moony the loony]

Eh, it seems to me that Azor Ahai and Rh'llor go hand in hand, like Jesus and the Judaeo-Christian god.

There is no Judaeo-Christian god. :tantrum:

You can keep Jesus, but please, leave my religion out of it. You probably don't want any fanatics on the board, so don't provoke me.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

There is no Judaeo-Christian god. :tantrum:

There isn't any gods at all, but the idea of the christian god is a memetic outgrowth of the idea of the Jewish god.

Which would be pretty interesting if that was the case with the Rh'llorian faith, actually...if as LV suggests, Azor Ahai was part of a much older tradition and Rh'llor got tacked on much later by a different group.

You can keep Jesus,

No thanks. I like my debaucheries to be guilt-free.

[stevelabny]

Melisandre was the basis of my crackpot theory, and I was gonna look for proof on my third read a few months back, but I kinda just read the books without doing my homework.

So you'll have to just ride with this as the ravings of a lunatic...

The Others and the not-quite others seem to live in the North, yet somehow Mance and thousands of wildlings live there too. The wildlings seem to know a way to stay away from Others.

One of the things often mentioned is to not light fires as it draws their attention. (However, they will risk the fire to burn their dead...my guess here is the build the fire and leave in a hurry)

To me it almost seems that the Others are specifically drawn to heat, they can follow body-heat once they're on your trail, but they need a bigger source of heat to find you in the first place.

The reason why the Wall is made of ice is because the cold from the ice wall is big and thick enough to block the "heat-vision" of the Others. Otherwise it could have been a regular wall.

If Mel was really running to the Wall to protect everyone from the Others, she would have mentioned this along the way to make her job easier, so I can't believe she's trying to protect everyone. She also just reeks of evil more than any other character in the series.

I believe Mel's "secret agenda" is to "light the way" for the Others. If she can get nightfires lit atop the wall at every castle, they could serve as a beacon to lead the Others. I vaguely remember her mentioning something along this train of though, but would have no idea where to go look for it. :D And of course, its also possible that if her fire-magic can get enough of a power-boost from eating kings, she can melt some wall herself too.

[feardeathbywater]

The heat-vision thing is a cool idea, but it would be hard to imagine the Others not knowing that the wall is there. They don't give a damn about cold -hell, they bring it- and fire they don't like.

Eh, it seems to me that Azor Ahai and Rh'llor go hand in hand, like Jesus and the Judaeo-Christian god.

I got the impression that it was more like Mithras and Ahura Mazda, or perhaps Rama (or even Agni) and Vishnu. Mithra was, I think, even given the title "Lord of Light" at one point. Both of them seem a bit more warlike, more like Azor Agai than Jesus does. The use of fire in religious ritual is esp. associated with Zoroastrianism. The ritual of the R'hllorists in general(as opposed to Melisandre & co. in particular) sounds like Hindu Yajna. Likewise, the spread of Mithraism throughout the late Roman Empire mirrors the (seemingly recent) explosion of R'hlorrism throughout the Free Cities and now Westeros. There are other more convincing candidates (The Faith of the Seven, Lhazareen Great Shepherd) for a Judeo-Christian parallel.

It would be nice if we were given more details, but you could say that about a lot of things.

[AquariumDrinker]

One of the things often mentioned is to not light fires as it draws their attention.

I don't recall ever seeing that in reference to the Others, where was it in the books?

[Jaan Vikary]

i've always entertained the idea Melisandre is a dangerous religious fanatic. I hated her when Robb died with her curse. Her designs on Edric Storm are equally foreboding. Always loved Davos point of view in life with his moral approach to life and Melisandre is a conterpoint to him. Davos being about morality, humanity and loyalty, Melisandre, blood, ooccultism, fanaticism, blind faith. She's scary. I've always lived my life in the Davos fashion.

If she has a part to play in saving the world that's another story. Her significance in the story so far is in enabling the Stannis claim. Stannis is the perfect patron for her in that he is as unforgiving in his pursuits as she is. One wonders who really is in charge here? In real life an issue like that would definately come up. Point was made that Melisandre had broken Stannis like a trainer breaks a horse! ha.

She kind of reminds me of Milady de Winter from The Three Musketeers, by Dumas. The Demoness in flesh not to be trifled with. I find her somewhat appealing in that context, but the religiosity, I find utterly disturbing. Her discussions with Davos for example. She runs circles around him, yet she likes Davos, and never does him in.

Melisandre also is fond of Jon Snow, another virtuous character that lives in an honorable fashion.

The character from Asshai with the red mask visiting Daenarys in her dreams obviously is from the same camp of Rhullor. She's very mystical but without the bloodiness and danger of Melisandre. Thoros of Mir, also a Rhullorist, less dangerous still, was downright secular and debauched living in King's Landing, then the sincere clerical brother to the Lightning Lord. Neither one of these people is anywhere near in the league of Melisandre, who is just mighty and powerful. The lady is out on a limb with Stannis, and just never bats an eyelash.

[mikeym]

WOW... Like the thread. My favourite part so far has been the use of the word "memetic". :)

I really quite like the religious themes in the SOIAF books as they aren't obvious in their relationships (what is in ASOIAF) and provoke a bit of thought.

I don't think we've had enough information about any of the religions so far to make any firm conclusions, but this is my take on them so far:

The religions in ASOIAF seem to play a similar role to religions in real life - in that they seek to explain a confusing world often through anthropomorphication, superstition and dogma. A number of the religions are mutually exclusive in that their dogma does not allow for other gods outside their own teachings (R'hllor & the Great-Other say that they are the only true gods), and even the concept of what constitutes a "God" seems to differ (R'hllor & the GO's as anthropomorphic representations of Fire and Ice, Life and Death compared to the Faith's aspects of man or the animatism of the old gods). However in ASOIAF belief in gods and their superstitions is much more believable because of the conceit that in this world magic works...

The chief example of the use of magic to support in their religion is Melisandre who can be seen to use a number of magical techniques to achieve her "divine" effects. Shaddowbinding from Asshai, protective gemstones, future reading, pyromancy, giving of heat and burning from a distance. A number of these techniques are possessed by those with no religious belief with the radiating heat and burning from a distance notable exceptions. These may be magical rather than divine though, radiating heat seems like she's giving off excess life force which she could be draining from Stannis similar to the way they do in the House of the Undying.

The counter example to this is the anecdotal evidence from Varys that when he was castrated by a magi the magi called and "someone" answered. Could be a false testimony or what Varys experienced could still be smoke and mirrors.

Another notable feature of the religions is that a number seem to have opposing deities (R'hllor and the GO, the Drowned God and the Storm God). This may be a reference to Catharism.

(edit) I was going to go on and say something about each of the religions but I think I've already gone on too long. :)

[Dougsmum]

Melisandre was the basis of my crackpot theory, and I was gonna look for proof on my third read a few months back, but I kinda just read the books without doing my homework.

So you'll have to just ride with this as the ravings of a lunatic...

The Others and the not-quite others seem to live in the North, yet somehow Mance and thousands of wildlings live there too. The wildlings seem to know a way to stay away from Others.

One of the things often mentioned is to not light fires as it draws their attention. (However, they will risk the fire to burn their dead...my guess here is the build the fire and leave in a hurry)

To me it almost seems that the Others are specifically drawn to heat, they can follow body-heat once they're on your trail, but they need a bigger source of heat to find you in the first place.

The reason why the Wall is made of ice is because the cold from the ice wall is big and thick enough to block the "heat-vision" of the Others. Otherwise it could have been a regular wall.

If Mel was really running to the Wall to protect everyone from the Others, she would have mentioned this along the way to make her job easier, so I can't believe she's trying to protect everyone. She also just reeks of evil more than any other character in the series.

I believe Mel's "secret agenda" is to "light the way" for the Others. If she can get nightfires lit atop the wall at every castle, they could serve as a beacon to lead the Others. I vaguely remember her mentioning something along this train of though, but would have no idea where to go look for it. :D And of course, its also possible that if her fire-magic can get enough of a power-boost from eating kings, she can melt some wall herself too.

I think this sounds probable. Melisandre certainly does reek of evil. Anyone who subjects innocent people (especially children) to painful death by fire obviously has no reverence for life. In my opinion Melisandre is just as evil and uncaring as Euron Crowe's Eye, who stands around watching while children are slaughtered. And it would be very easy for her to convert everyone to her faith if she claims R'hollor is the only way to fight the Others. So if she creates a problem that only she can solve, everyone will be in need of her leadership!

[Jaan Vikary]

Religion had an only colloquial interest in the first ice and Fire book, until the ending; in the Game of Thrones there was almost no cultural reference to magic, religion or occultism, withstanding the hidden blue elephant, the others, whom nobody in Westeros knows about, and then the birth of Daenarys' dragons.The Starks had their trees, the Tully's had their seven faced gods, but these were remote, uninterfering elements. First chapter, Clash of Kings, enter a howling occult presence in the form of the demonness Melisandre.

We could take note of the growing imbalance in Westeros and its departure from calmer, non intervening religious norms, into a state of chaotic religious and cultural imbalnce, and ensuing warfare and misery. Melisandre's ascendance and personality represent this departure from decency. Who knows maybe she'll turn out to be right and save the world from the others. Right now I'd call her real evil.

As for her secret agenda, it's of an occult nature; religious, she's not in any political camp like Littlefinger or Varys.