Body language

[Ser Vlad]

So I take a turn to check out an old forum I used to post on and see that things have not changed at all from back in the day. That's always cool to see.

At any rate, the general thesis that body langauge plays a significant role in flirting is most likely true; after all, there's pretty overwhemling evidence that a significant amount of communication as a whole is non-verbal, so it's to be expected that flirting would be no different.

The issue is that non-verbal communication is not quite equivalent to body language, and things like facial expression, eye contact, and tone are major determinats of the intention of an interaction, as much as things like posture are. The problem with showing posture in isolation is that social interaction doesn't work that way; we triangulate what we think the other person is feeling based on a variety of cues and our experience with them.

So even taking things that this random online article says for granted, it's perfectly plausible to have a woman stand in a so-called desirable pose and give contradictory information via eye-contact, tone etc.

These guys have a hard time reading body language to begin with. Articles like this don't help. And a lot of them probably don't realize that their own body language leaves a lot to be desired. People like this (women, too) close their body language and make themselves unapproachable. A lot of shy men come across as cold, aloof and arrogant. I really don't think they know they're doing it, but how do you tell the difference between a shy man (or woman) and one that really isn't interested? The only way to know for sure is to ask outright, and who wants to put themselves in that position?

One other thing to add to this is that interpreting social behaviour is something that (shockingly!) requires practice. So if you are a person that is naturally shy, you're in the business of avoiding social interaction. That means you're limiting your chances to learn how to interpret social behaviour. IMO, the best thing someone shy can do is to start interacting with others. It won't reduce natural anxiety, but it will help to improve basic social orientation abilities like these.

[Mad Monkey]

So even taking things that this random online article says for granted,

But don't. Just because someone uses a real thing that exists ("Body language"), doesn't mean they're always 100% accurate about it. I could probably crank out an article about how wearing a grey hoodie means that you're into necrophilia but that doesn't mean I'm right just because grey sweaters really exist.

[Ser Vlad]

But don't. Just because someone uses a real thing that exists ("Body language"), doesn't mean they're always 100% accurate about it. I could probably crank out an article about how wearing a grey hoodie means that you're into necrophilia but that doesn't mean I'm right just because grey sweaters really exist.

Right, of course.

What I meant was that even if we suppose that there is a right answer to what particular postures indicate, these interactions are more complicated and integrated than just posture in itself. Posture has to be perceived as a gestalt with everything else the person does.

So in short, the whole article is useless.

I meant to sort of point out the meta-problem, which is that posture is only a minor part of body langauge, and talking about posture as if it was indicative of anything as non-verbal communication is simple wrong, irrespective of content.

I suppose I should have been clearer.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Very true, but there actually are men who would use the "oh she said no, but her body said yes" bullshit excuse for sexual assault that this article seems to be hinting at. Date rapists and drunken "frat" types use these excuses often enough.

The thing that really got my blood boiling, was that pretty much every pose was saying "I want you now, TAKE ME!" instead of "I am actually standing like this because its comfortable to me,"

Because, you know, every woman bases her posture and body language on hinting that she wants you to club her over the head and drag her lifelessly back to your cave.

Of course. We are all driven by our sexual desires, and those desires are presented pretty clearly through body language when near the opposite sex. Its an unconscious thing.

I understand why girls might be offended, but the 'game' does actually work. Sexual attraction is just a bunch of chemicals, if you know the ins and outs it all becomes pretty easy. Women use men the same way, so this is hardly a one-way issue.

I don't recommend treating getting laid like a science though. It can work, but its probably not as satisfying as the old fashioned method.

[S John]

I don't think that just about any article like this is to be taken seriously. I've been using yahoo for my personal email for years and every few days they have an article on the yahoo homepage like this one. Usually something like "10 signs he's into you" "10 signs she's not that into you" "10 signs he's cheating on you" etc, etc. So yea, over the years I've browsed a few of them, and the one thing they usually have in common is that in each one there at the least there are 3 or 4 items in there that I would dispute. Often times if its an article written by women for other women but about male behavior, there will be a couple items in there that I flat out disagree with because they do not apply to me even though I do have a penis and a couple balls. Similarly, many women reading this article are probably finding that some/most/all of it does not apply to them and therefore the article is crap. Its just some guy or gal saying something. Nothing more. It'd be like me using Maxim as my guys guide to what is cool or who is hot. I've got that shit covered, thank you, don't need to pick up a Maxim for that.

My guess is that most guys who are genuinely interested in the information put forth by the article are not going to be the 'every girl wants to bang me type.' They are likely going to be a shy fella who doesn't have much luck with the ladies looking for any little scrap of info that might help him out. Perhaps this article may give that guy the confidence to talk to a woman that he otherwise would have waffled on. In which case, his natural disposition is nervousness/awkwardness, and he'll probably over-think things and blow the whole approach anyway.

The only point brought up in this thread that I will dispute is that you'll know when a woman wants to take you home when she says "I want you to take me home." In my experience it is extremely rare for women to initiate verbally in the early stages of relationships. I know several guys who are good-looking, smart, and charming and even they can't expect to just sit a bar somewhere and have everything fall into their lap the way a pretty girl can. Typically, as a man, you cannot expect the woman to initiate. I'm not making any judgement about it, nor do I mean to dismiss any of the pressures placed on the shoulders of women in these situations, that's just how the system seems to work for the most part.

Believe it or not, dear board, in my lifetime there have been times when women have decided that it was a good idea to come home with me. A lot of times (most of the time) especially if early-on in a relationship, a woman may absolutely barrage you with signals but will stop short of actually coming out and saying "I want you to take me home." At the early stages of a relationship (or for a random encounter) I have had to make the suggestion or otherwise initiate damn near 100% of the time even though the woman was just as (or more!) interested in sealing the deal than I was.

I am an extremely low-pressure guy, I would be a horrible salesman. These are not cases of me annoying women until they agree to sleep with me. These are cases of them showing interest through various signals that I have to then process and interpret in order to then make the correct guess and do so in a manner that is as charming, relaxed, and / or witty as possible. And the consequences for mis-reading could be anywhere from mildly embarrassing / laughing it off to utterly mortifying depending on the situation. In my opinion an article is absolutely no replacement for real-world experience, but that is why there is a market for these types of articles aimed at both sexes. People want to show up with their guns loaded to avoid looking foolish. I wouldn't read much more into it than that.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Wow. Thanks for the lifestory.

Joke, it was slightly interesting S John. Contrarian women are the worst. I got severely turned of dating by one a year and a half ago. Constantly said things she didn't mean, seemed to change her mind daily, and was just too exhausting mentally to deal with. And yeah I know she was probably an exception, but it still put me of dating.

Sex is more important to me. But even 'I' wouldn't go out into the 'field' so to speak and use a fucking handbook. Thats just bloody dehumanising.

[S John]

Sex is more important to me. But even 'I' wouldn't go out into the 'field' so to speak and use a fucking handbook. Thats just bloody dehumanising.

Well, not only that but reading an article about something and then trying to remember it when faced with a real live person that you are attracted to are two entirely different things. All you can really do is be yourself, which was really all I was trying to say.

Wow. Thanks for the lifestory.

Joke, it was slightly interesting S John.

:lol: Shit, I hope my actual life story will be a lot more interesting than my above post. I hope it is at least interesting enough to where I can turn it into an auto-biographical screenplay where I will be played by either Arnold Schwarzenegger, The Rock, or possibly Daniel Craig. I know they're all much too old, I'd just rather that than end up being played by Shia LaBeouf or something. And I'd really like to see Arnold get back in the biz after he's done with whatever inconsequential project it is that he's been working on for the past several years.

[ohmahgaw]

Of course. We are all driven by our sexual desires, and those desires are presented pretty clearly through body language when near the opposite sex. Its an unconscious thing.

I understand why girls might be offended, but the 'game' does actually work. Sexual attraction is just a bunch of chemicals, if you know the ins and outs it all becomes pretty easy. Women use men the same way, so this is hardly a one-way issue.

I don't recommend treating getting laid like a science though. It can work, but its probably not as satisfying as the old fashioned method.

I know it's hard for men to fathom this, but not all women are driven by sex. A lot of women could go without it, and without relationships or sexual contact with men, regardless of their attraction for them. The sex drive can definitely be equal among men and women, but in my experience, for the most part its the defining factor in a mans life. I know you are saying its unconscious, but I honestly don't see it, whether it's in my particular case or the cases with many many female friends.

For the second time, I am not doubting body language. I was appalled at how sexist this article was, and if the men here still can't see it then I have lost faith.

Just to reiterate, read this as if you were a woman.

"We all know that women can be confusing creatures."

"They say "I'm fine" when they mean "I am about to start bawling -- and I'll never let you forget it." They follow counterintuitive "Rules"-esque guidelines about whose turn it is to call. And on top of all that, they're less likely to sleep with guys they actually like. "

We figured there must be a way to cut through the confusing subtext and mixed signals, so we turned to science, in the form of Kevin Hogan, one of the nation's leading body-language experts.

"She's non-consciously drawing attention to her neck, which is a bit of an invitation"

I have never in my life met a woman who can stand on two feet for more than a few minutes without leaning heavily on one foot or the other and switching between the two. We have wider hips, and our feet are much closer together than most men's when we are standing. It’s uncomfortable to stand balancing equal weight onto both.

"It wouldn't surprise me if she started to nibble at a fingernail," says Hogan. "She is postured like a young teenager. Her hand to her waist is not for power, but maybe for display (if she's thinking about anything at all)."

No matter the context, what about the sentence is NOT offensive?

"She is prepared to be obedient," he says. "Her hands are keeping her posture straight and completely open and her neck is completely exposed. That's as open an invitation as she can give you."

"Her crossed leg indicates she is planning on staying here with you for as long as you like," he adds.

Obedient?

This laid-back stance signifies that this woman is "aggressively flirting with you," our expert tells us.

"She shows you her body, but blocks it with her right arm offering you a small hurdle to get past to get the prize." The way she's sitting on her foot represents a sort of vulnerability, as well.

"As long as she is sitting as she does in church, she will behave as if she is in church."

"She probably isn't allowed to jump over the table and ride you out the door, so she is giving you all the signals possible that now is the time for you to get up and get moving," our expert explains.

He adds, "She has opened her entire body to you. All that's left is for someone to smack you over the head and say, 'Do it!'"

However, notice that the woman's weight is shifted in this position, as well. This unbalanced weight distribution leaves her "completely vulnerable," despite any discomfort she may feel toward you.

In other words: Not all hope is lost.

Either you just said something offensive or your breath is bad. This is obvious because the woman has leaned away from you in addition to crossing her arms.

Luckily, "Her feet are still both pointed toward you, forgiving your boorish behavior," explains Hogan.

So when someone is talking to me and I am not interested I should somehow turn my feet the other way? How the hell am I supposed to do this?

When a woman is that close to you, it's high time you make a move.

"This is the moment you've waited for," Hogan tells Asylum. "She is completely in your personal space and her body simply says, "Take me home.'" Hogan adds, "Her left toe pointing toward you is the final signal."

This is another one of those stances that screams, "I want you!" our expert says.

He explains, "She gives full view of her chest, completely opens the door by placing her arm behind her body and handcuffing her other arm. This body is one that wants to be taken, so step up to the plate."

Honestly, how can you read this article and not be offended by it? Why are men not offended by sexism against women?

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Ok, ohmahgaw, fair point. Women are sometimes driven by sex, as opposed to men who are always driven by sex. I guess thats where the confusion comes in.

Truth is, I didn't know. I equated women's sexual drive to men's because I thought anything else might be perceived as sexist, and a few posters here scare me.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Well, not only that but reading an article about something and then trying to remember it when faced with a real live person that you are attracted to are two entirely different things. All you can really do is be yourself, which was really all I was trying to say.

Oh believe me, there are people who do this. I have several acquaintances obsessed with the 'game'. They genuinely treat it like a science.

:lol: Shit, I hope my actual life story will be a lot more interesting than my above post. I hope it is at least interesting enough to where I can turn it into an auto-biographical screenplay where I will be played by either Arnold Schwarzenegger, The Rock, or possibly Daniel Craig. I know they're all much too old, I'd just rather that than end up being played by Shia LaBeouf or something. And I'd really like to see Arnold get back in the biz after he's done with whatever inconsequential project it is that he's been working on for the past several years.

Haha, don't worry dude, from your post I'm sure that the sexual memoirs of S John will bring the governor out of retirement.

[Kat]

To be fair here, I've known, and even dated, guys who are not particularly sexual. It's not something that's limited to women. (At least based on the smallish sample size of people I know who plotted their sexual attraction to men/women on an XY chart at a party I was at this one time. :P)

[ohmahgaw]

Ok, ohmahgaw, fair point. Women are sometimes driven by sex, as opposed to men who are always driven by sex. I guess thats where the confusion comes in.

Truth is, I didn't know. I equated women's sexual drive to men's because I thought anything else might be perceived as sexist, and a few posters here scare me.

I'm not trying to paint the male population as knuckle dragging over sexed neanderthals. Obviously not ALL men are driven solely by sex, but biologically, yes in general their sex drive is much greater.

Not sure how reliable WebMD is, but here's just the first link that showed up when I did some brief research

sex drive men vs. women

The thing that this "expert" int he AOL article lacks is a feminine perspective. How can a man, who so obviously only thinks about sex (or at least only every 15 seconds) even ATTEMPT to see social situations from the perspective of someone who may not think about it all day? When women flirt, they're not always thinking about sex. I could alter my body language to try to make myself more attractive to the person I am trying to impress or even just to anyone I am talking to, male or female, but that in no way is me hinting that I "want it bad"

I may not even be trying to impress anyone at all.

Men are confused by women because they don't even attempt to think about the world from a female's perspective. To them, women who flirt are thinking about fucking because that's all they themselves are thinking about. Projection.

I wish I knew more men who actually cared what women think and feel. Too many men I know only want women who are "dumber" than them, who will be their mommy, maid, and sex toy. Even the "nicest" men I know have some pretty deep seated sexist ideals when it comes to relationships.

I had a man at work, who by the way has been trying to get in my pants for months, tell me he thinks women have it easier than men because "they can just marry some rich guy and never have to work for the rest of their lives" and "If all I ever had to complain about was a period I would consider myself to have a pretty easy life"

I thought it was pretty funny until literally every guy in the room agreed. Needless to say, I felt like pounding my fist into a wall. I work with mostly men, and so I have grown into quite the little feminist over the past year or so. Sorry for the rant, I don't have anyone to really vent to.

:crying:

[potsherds]

The thing that this "expert" int he AOL article lacks is a feminine perspective. How can a man, who so obviously only thinks about sex (or at least only every 15 seconds) even ATTEMPT to see social situations from the perspective of someone who may not think about it all day? When women flirt, they're not always thinking about sex. I could alter my body language to try to make myself more attractive to the person I am trying to impress or even just to anyone I am talking to, male or female, but that in no way is me hinting that I "want it bad"

I may not even be trying to impress anyone at all.

Men are confused by women because they don't even attempt to think about the world from a female's perspective. To them, women who flirt are thinking about fucking because that's all they themselves are thinking about. Projection.

I wish I knew more men who actually cared what women think and feel.

<snip>

Not gonna try to touch on the emotional aspect of your posts, cos I get it, I really do, but I want to warn you that being angry about this stuff and showing that anger in your posts is likely gonna get asshats of the forum to nail you to the wall with their own defensiveness and privilege, so you need a thick skin to talk about this stuff, because you're gonna get shit on for being angry about the way things are. I personally think you should be angry, and you have every right to be, but a lot of folks don't get that, and take it personally.

Anywho, the bolded parts: Men are the privileged gender/sex in all of society. Every aspect of society is tailor-made to fit their point of view. They are the default perspective, the default employee, employer, consumer, student, president, CEO, breadwinner, etc., etc., etc. Growing up in a society tailored to ones privileged status means that it is not required of the privileged group to have any need to think about the lives, feelings, thoughts, or anything really, of the unprivileged group. As a result, many men simply lack much awareness, or have less practice in putting oneself in the opposite gender's shoes (empathy). I would hazard to guess that men who have the most difficulty in understanding women are likely the ones who have the least ability or have the least practice in this necessary component of listening and caring about someone with significant differences than oneself. These differences which are ironically due in part (large or small) to growing up in, and being shaped by, a society that forges such wide gulfs between the genders in the first place.

[ohmahgaw]

Not gonna try to touch on the emotional aspect of your posts, cos I get it, I really do, but I want to warn you that being angry about this stuff and showing that anger in your posts is likely gonna get asshats of the forum to nail you to the wall with their own defensiveness and privilege, so you need a thick skin to talk about this stuff, because you're gonna get shit on for being angry about the way things are. I personally think you should be angry, and you have every right to be, but a lot of folks don't get that, and take it personally.

Anywho, the bolded parts: Men are the privileged gender/sex in all of society. Every aspect of society is tailor-made to fit their point of view. They are the default perspective, the default employee, employer, consumer, student, president, CEO, breadwinner, etc., etc., etc. Growing up in a society tailored to ones privileged status means that it is not required of the privileged group to have any need to think about the lives, feelings, thoughts, or anything really, of the unprivileged group. As a result, many men simply lack much awareness, or have less practice in putting oneself in the opposite gender's shoes (empathy). I would hazard to guess that men who have the most difficulty in understanding women are likely the ones who have the least ability or have the least practice in this necessary component of listening and caring about someone with significant differences than oneself. These differences which are ironically due in part (large or small) to growing up in, and being shaped by, a society that forges such wide gulfs between the genders in the first place.

You're very right. It's difficult to see from another perspective when you are from a privileged culture. I remember a time when I had virtually no sympathy for minorities who cried racism and white supremacy because I was naive enough to think that in America everyone was given equal opportunity to succeed and that if you work hard your dreams will come true. Sure I knew racism existed, but I thought it was a relatively outdated problem. After all, no one had ever been racist towards me. I thought the same for sexism. What I wasn't prepared for when I entered the "real world" was the sublte ways in which society oppresses people. It's such a "sweep under the rug" sort of issue that I think most men who consider themselves not to be sexist, are the same ones who actively adhere to sexist ideals without being consciously aware of it.

Sort of like my dad telling me he isn't a racist, and then bringing up why black people don't get hired because "they work on colored people time." He honest to god does not think that it's racist to say that. He also compliments back people by saying "You are very articulate!" (I cringe inside whenever he uses that adjective to describe a black person) It's the same when men say "Of course my wife is equal to me, she can earn just as much money and work as many hours, just so long as she ALSO does the laundry/dishes/takes care of the kids and is subservient to my sexual desires, because its in her nature to do so and those are not manly things. I was shocked to find just how common that line of thinking is.

Sorry if my racism rant de-railed a bit, I was just trying to explain how experiencing sexism has opened my eyes to racism (also homophobia)

Please don't think this is somehow aimed at bashing white men, because I'm not trying to bash them.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Just making a note for myself to reply more fully when I'm on a proper keyboard.

I will just try to summarise my opinion by saying it's not really (or shouldn't be) a surprise when people -- particularly women -- give out mixed signals, given the mixed messages we all take in from society. And yes, I'm considering that separately from an individual giving out single, clear signals, but someone else misinterprets the message.

[kiko]

Not gonna try to touch on the emotional aspect of your posts, cos I get it, I really do, but I want to warn you that being angry about this stuff and showing that anger in your posts is likely gonna get asshats of the forum to nail you to the wall with their own defensiveness and privilege, so you need a thick skin to talk about this stuff, because you're gonna get shit on for being angry about the way things are. I personally think you should be angry, and you have every right to be, but a lot of folks don't get that, and take it personally.

To be honest. Every critique she gets for posts like this is rightly deserved. As long as they are fair, of course.

Sorry I couldn'T write more in the 14 seconds I could spend for this post

[ohmahgaw]

To be honest. Every critique she gets for posts like this is rightly deserved. As long as they are fair, of course.

Sorry I couldn'T write more in the 14 seconds I could spend for this post

I deserve to be critiqued because I don't like living in a sexist society and feel the need to vent my frustrations? Or are you trying to say that everyone has the "right" to critique me? I'm confused.

[kiko]

I deserve to be critiqued because I don't like living in a sexist society and feel the need to vent my frustrations? Or are you trying to say that everyone has the "right" to critique me? I'm confused.

There is no need to explain because you as a woman won't have a problem to read the post, I feel is offensive, from the perspective of a man.

[ohmahgaw]

There is no need to explain because you as a woman won't have a problem to read the post, I feel is offensive, from the perspective of a man.

I was legitimately asking you to explain, not trying to be "snarky" or appear sarcastic in anyway.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

I'm not trying to paint the male population as knuckle dragging over sexed neanderthals. Obviously not ALL men are driven solely by sex, but biologically, yes in general their sex drive is much greater.

Not sure how reliable WebMD is, but here's just the first link that showed up when I did some brief research

sex drive men vs. women

The thing that this "expert" int he AOL article lacks is a feminine perspective. How can a man, who so obviously only thinks about sex (or at least only every 15 seconds) even ATTEMPT to see social situations from the perspective of someone who may not think about it all day? When women flirt, they're not always thinking about sex. I could alter my body language to try to make myself more attractive to the person I am trying to impress or even just to anyone I am talking to, male or female, but that in no way is me hinting that I "want it bad"

I may not even be trying to impress anyone at all.

Men are confused by women because they don't even attempt to think about the world from a female's perspective. To them, women who flirt are thinking about fucking because that's all they themselves are thinking about. Projection.

I wish I knew more men who actually cared what women think and feel. Too many men I know only want women who are "dumber" than them, who will be their mommy, maid, and sex toy. Even the "nicest" men I know have some pretty deep seated sexist ideals when it comes to relationships.

I had a man at work, who by the way has been trying to get in my pants for months, tell me he thinks women have it easier than men because "they can just marry some rich guy and never have to work for the rest of their lives" and "If all I ever had to complain about was a period I would consider myself to have a pretty easy life"

I thought it was pretty funny until literally every guy in the room agreed. Needless to say, I felt like pounding my fist into a wall. I work with mostly men, and so I have grown into quite the little feminist over the past year or so. Sorry for the rant, I don't have anyone to really vent to.

:crying:

Eh, women tend to believe they have it worse, and men believe they have it worse. Truth is its hard for one sex to relate to the other. We are just different, and we can't help the way we're wired.

If its any consolation, just because a man thinks about sex all the time doesn't necessarily mean they don't view women as equals. And regardless, there are actually guys who fit your ideal. You don't notice them because they stay out of the limelight.