The Tully's killed Robb?

[Swordsaint]

On the official HBO site there was a thread called "Who do you hate most". I named Cat 5th, and was only person to even name her at all. My reason is pretty close to yours. Rob might not have broke his wedding vow (not that I think he should have kept it anyways). He was a king in love, in a world where everyone seems to be doing whatever they want. The KIngslayer was the only positive thing going for Rob between Winterfell and Kingslanding, and his own mother let him go. As far as I'm concerned she may as well have been his best man at that point. Cat trying to talk Rob out of the marriage was a bad joke after letting Jamie go. Between Cat, and her insanely retarded sister, you have a really good point. I was so happy to read about Lysa getting thrown through the moon door. It's the one really positive thing that I can thank Little-finger for.

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

Cat killed her entire family.

If she didn't take Tyrion prisoner...alot would have been different, Jaime wouldn't have attacked Ned and the Northern guard, Tywin wouldn't have sent Clegane to destroy the riverlands, etc.

She created alot of death due to revenge...and she didn't even have the right guy.

[DornishKnight]

Tullys didn't kill Robb. Robb killed Robb.

[A wilding]

Cat trying to talk Rob out of the marriage was a bad joke after letting Jamie go.

This is the books part of the forum.

Cat did not find out about Robb's marriage until after it happened. Robb did not know about Jaime being released when he got married. Jaime's release did not cause the Red Wedding or even enable it.

[Rains]

Bryden is the biggest badass after a few notable people. The Blackfish is the only thing that kept Riverrun together after Robb's fall.

Still Edmure can't be at fault, this was also Robb's doing due to not sharing the plans. Tywin is a clear threat and not doing anything about it may have lost him the Riverlands again. Sure Robb said *hold* but when a commander has to make decisions, it's usually the one thats straight-in-your-face obvious.

Cat is a greiving mother. I understand her, though she was foolish, you have to pity her. She's about the only mother in the Great Houses that acutally CARES for her children. Sure, Tywin might have enjoyed Cersei and Stannis might love Shireen. But Cat and Ned are two people who actually full-out *show* it.

Lysa? Lysa's a bitch, she can go and throw herself from the moon door again and land on Littlefinger's little cock whilst she's at it. In-fact, no, she can land on Brandon's because she'd enjoy the former too much.

[Rains]

Tullys didn't kill Robb. Robb killed Robb.

No...

Robb's cock killed Robb.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I agree with this and Lucky Shield's piece - the Lannisters are the only Great House with my respect because they're by and large not goofy good-natured screwups.

Minus Cersei and Joffrey, right? Talk about screw-ups.

[Horza]

Minus Cersei and Joffrey, right? Talk about screw-ups.

It's the "good-natured" bit I can't stand :P

[Ludd]

Sorry people but it is rather hard to respect the Tullys

Hoster is a father and makes mistakes as do all fathers but he is OK - the Petyr Baelish/ Lyssa thing was a mistake in hind sight but it was one many parents would make. Cannot hate him

Edmure is an average to below average strategist and a bit weak - but we can use Catelyn's own judgement of him to see him as a bit of a weakling - the near escape of Jaime clearly indicates his relative lack of caution. A likeable weakling

Blackfish is actually a great guy - seems honourable and competent. No idea why he did not marry but the following are ideas - 1. he is already married, 2 He took some sort of oath to some secret group or other,3 as someone suggested he was in love with his bro's wife - not a good enough reason I feel

Lyssa - clearly she is NOT a likeable person - she is basically a rather silly, weak woman with an unrequited passion. It is hard to see how anyone could find much nice to say about Lyssa. She is full of hate and jealously.

Catelyn: Now I admit to being a Catelyn hater - her treatment of Jon Snow was cruel - "it should have been you" was an unforgivable act to say to a child. Ned called her cruel. She is the archetypal ugly stepmother and it is a measure of GRRM's genious that so many like her. She is after all Mrs Reed in Jane Eyre, or Cinderella's step mother (someone cleverly suggested Jon should be named Cinderfella, or indeed the ugly stepmother to the waif). Her judgements and actions have almost always been flawed, far more than anyone - other than perhaps Cersai. Now just about everyone in the book makes some serious mistakes. She makes more than most. As Lady Stoneheart she is mean and cruel - How dare she try to hang poor Podrik - a ten year old boy - her crime is just the same as Karstark who lost his head. Unjustifiable vengeance on a child.

[Kolantero]

Nope

[A wilding]

... Now I admit to being a Catelyn hater - her treatment of Jon Snow was cruel - "it should have been you" was an unforgivable act to say to a child. Ned called her cruel. She is the archetypal ugly stepmother and it is a measure of GRRM's genious that so many like her. ...

Hate Catelyn if you like, but please get your facts right. She is neither ugly nor a stepmother. (And why focus in on her looks anyway?)

And if you consider "it should have been you" to be unforgivable, you must really hate Jaime - and Theon, Cersei, Gregor, Tywin, and all those other people who have done far worse things to children.

[Fitzochris]

Cat didn't want Robb to send Theon to treat with Balon. If he'd listened, that would have saved a whole world of hurt.

[Ludd]

Wilding - not sure if your first language is english but the "ugly stepmother" is a character in stories who mistreated Cinder Ella so I was not referring to to looks, just her role. Also she IS a step mother - Jon is the son of her husband - that is the definition of a step mother (ignoring marriage etc).

And yes the actions of Jaime, Cersai, Theon and Twyin are unforgivable I do not make heroes of these guys unlike some. Gregor is a monster

I am not a fan of Jaime's redemption arc. He deserves no mercy. Nor Theon - the miller's sons - evil

[Kham of the Gods Wood]

after reading some of these posts I dislike the Tully house even more. My beef with Catyln is how she treats Jon from the start. Its almost like the rest of her downfall was pre-written because she denied the truest Stark of the entire bunch.

You can step back and look at Robb Stark as more of a Tully when it comes to fate, Sansa too.

[A wilding]

Wilding - not sure if your first language is english but the "ugly stepmother" is a character in stories who mistreated Cinder Ella so I was not referring to to looks, just her role. Also she IS a step mother - Jon is the son of her husband - that is the definition of a step mother (ignoring marriage etc).

It is usually "wicked stepmother", not "ugly stepmother". After all the archetype usually has the father marry her for her looks while failing to spot her evil nature. In Cinderella, it is the step sisters who are ugly, not their mother.

And you can't "ignore marriage", because that is the whole point of the archetype. The child by the first marriage is the true heir. The stepmother marries the father under that understanding, but then tries to supplant the heir and get the inheritance for her own children.

The Ned/Catelyn/Jon situation is more or less a subversion of the archetype precisely because Jon is not the true heir. He turns up after Ned and Catelyn marry, and his existence at Winterfell is a potential threat to the true born heirs.

[Lady Norry]

I've always thought of Catelyn and Cersei as two sides of the same bad penny. Catelyn doesn't trust her brother as a leader in the battlefield and with good reason, The great pillock almost mucked up their father's funeral service. Catelyn, I think, sees herself as the stronger most dutiful child of Hoster Tully. Hence all her decisions are noble and right. Equally Cersei sees herself as a strong leader, as she blunders along merrily reeking havoc on Westeros.

It was Jon Arran who brought about his own demise, by insisting on having Robert go as a squire to the Lannisters, The prospect of such almost drove poor fragile Lysa over the edge.(that is until she finnaly did go over the edge) Littlefinger provided the solution Poison. Probably brought over by a 'faceless man' from Braavos who ended up in the black cells for some reason.