Best/Worst 5 POV characters?

[IceNeedle]

But considering the next line of your post and the thread title I guess you are envisioning the readers* attitude towards Theon & Cersei as persons and not that they find Theon*s chapters more interesting and readable.

Well I am not exactly Cersei*s best defender but there is also that: with all her ugliness (inside) she did what she did out of love to her children, while Theon have shown (in so far) that he would do anything which he considers beneficial for . . . Theon.

I'm not at all sure I agree with that. Virtually everything Cersei does is purely in her own self-interest -- almost to the point where I have to wonder if some part of her support for her children is part and parcel of trying to maintain her own power. On my re-read, I kept being astounded at how utterly vile her every thought was, until it almost became unbelievably over-the-top. By the end, I was considering Cersei not only the most evil character in the book, but perhaps one of the most evil characters I've ever been in the head of.

Theon is certainly selfish, arrogant, and somewhat dim. But I don't think of him as out-and-out evil as Cersei. Theon actually intended to keep his alliance with Robb, and asked for his father's approval to attack Casterly Rock. It was Balon who said "Hell no, the North is a-ripe for pluckin'", which changed everything. Theon could not reasonably be expected to oppose that, and once it was a given, he became set on his rather heinous series of actions against Winterfell.

Theon is possibly the second-worst character (from the standpoint of evil/selfishness/etc.), but IMO Cersei is by far the worst.

[Tomacatawata]

@Tomacatawata

I think that there is some ambiguity with your saying that

But considering the next line of your post and the thread title I guess you are envisioning the readers* attitude towards Theon & Cersei as persons and not that they find Theon*s chapters more interesting and readable.

Well I am not exactly Cersei*s best defender but there is also that: with all her ugliness (inside) she did what she did out of love to her children, while Theon have shown (in so far) that he would do anything which he considers beneficial for . . . Theon.

Anyway IMO It would have been very pervert turn of destiny if these two nobles had become a family couple (which was considered although not very seriously at one point of the story).

Hey, I actually like Cersei. I think she's sympathetic and I haven't disliked her yet. But the vast majority of the reason why people dislike her, that I've read anyway, has usually been that she's an arrogant, incomptent bitch. To me at least Theon is just as bad if not worse than Cersei yet people love him for it.

[Mad Monkey]

Who likes Theon? He, like Cersei, takes Eddard's political incompetence and combines -- inexplicable -- with a truly loathsome and spiteful personality. It is possible to admire a man who is willing to put his own sense of honor over common sense and his own personal safety. There's nothing admirable about a person who sacrifices his own honor for the pleasure of suffering humiliating defeat and utter destruction. The way I see it, you can either be an asshole or a moron, but not both.

[Songlian]

Who likes Theon?

I do. I reserve the right to like a character that is a complete train wreck, just like I reserve the right to dislike any character that's going down the Mary Sue path, doing everything well and getting a neat little story all wrapped up in a bow.

It's not always about how competent and righteous a character is. Sometimes it's also about how much of a naive immature cocky treacherous ungrateful selfish immoral dim-witted character you are, and still do your best, trying to beat the odds and taking a chance at winning the game, even if you fail miserably in the end.

Hence, Theon's appeal.

[Mad Monkey]

So do you like Cersei too? Tomacatawata's last line was giving me the impression that Theon is some wildly popular character on the boards (a la Tyrion) while Cersei is hated even though they're practically the same guy.

[CFdS]

She pretty much has to love Ned, she has nobody else in the North for companionship and she is pretty dependent on his good will for basically her entire happiness. Brides move far, far away from their homes, she has no people of her own there, and once she's stuck in that marriage with that man and his bastard son all she can do is make the best of it. She tried to love Ned despite Jon, and she succeeded; she tried to love Jon, and she failed. It is really hard to bear a grudge against a man while having to obey his will and submit to his sexual advances. That is demeaning. On the other hand, if she can salvage a loving relationship out of what landed on her doorstep, then it's a fulfilling life. She doesn't get to leave him, she can't grab a quickie divorce in Reno and then go support herself by slinging hash down at the Five and Dine. She's stuck, and she can either be stuck and miserable or stuck and relatively happy.

That does still not answer why she feels so strong about Jon. When she can forgive Ned his (alleged) cheating, surely she can forgive Jon that he was born, especially since (most of) her children get along with him greatly. Her treatment of Jon seems to be the only rough spot in her marriage to Ned and if she rearly wants to salvage that relationship she could do Ned that one favour and treat Jon like a member of the extended family (she doesn't have to treat him like a son, perhaps more like a ... nephew?). Or does she really have to choose between forgiving Ned and forgiving Jon?

[Songlian]

So do you like Cersei too?

Yup, I do.

[Mad Monkey]

Yup, I do.

So I'm right then! Awesome!

[Errant Bard]

Tomacatawata's last line was giving me the impression that Theon is some wildly popular character on the boards (a la Tyrion) while Cersei is hated even though they're practically the same guy.

Nah, Theon actually has some remorse (and he know that what he does is bad, he still does it though), and actually likes some people, plus Theon's whole motivation is to be acknowledged and loved (he does it wrong) while Cersei... she only wants power, through her children if needs be, and she can't actually yearn for recognition because she doesn't listen and actually doesn't care much for reality, only her own delusions.

[Daena the Defiant]

That does still not answer why she feels so strong about Jon. When she can forgive Ned his (alleged) cheating, surely she can forgive Jon that he was born, especially since (most of) her children get along with him greatly. Her treatment of Jon seems to be the only rough spot in her marriage to Ned and if she rearly wants to salvage that relationship she could do Ned that one favour and treat Jon like a member of the extended family (she doesn't have to treat him like a son, perhaps more like a ... nephew?). Or does she really have to choose between forgiving Ned and forgiving Jon?

Aside from the moment she was actively cruel to him, can you cite even one instance of mistreatment on the part of Catelyn towards Jon?

Do you also deride Ned for failing to ensure that his son felt he was part of the family?

[IanOfWinterfell]

Cersei is not entirely selfish. She legitimately cares for her children and their well-being. She's a bad mother, to be sure, but she is still a mother who cares about her children.

[Lady Blackfish]

When she can forgive Ned his (alleged) cheating, surely she can forgive Jon that he was born, especially since (most of) her children get along with him greatly. Her treatment of Jon seems to be the only rough spot in her marriage to Ned and if she rearly wants to salvage that relationship she could do Ned that one favour and treat Jon like a member of the extended family (she doesn't have to treat him like a son, perhaps more like a ... nephew?). Or does she really have to choose between forgiving Ned and forgiving Jon?

To me it seemed like she's caught between not having forgiven Ned and knowing in the reasonable part of her mind that she shouldn't take it out on Jon (which is why her later thoughts of Jon are accompanied by (muted) guilt or rationalizations). She has no choice but to get over it, so she tries and then fails to do it completely. Her resentment seems like a testament to her choicelessness: it would be easier if she wasn't forced into the situation, but she is, and the irrationality of her feelings shows what happens when there are no avenues available to deal constructively with those feelings. Why do all those feelings get focused on Jon? Ned knows that he's imposing on Cat, so he not going to require her to bond with Jon, and really there is no social standard for her to do so, everyone even in the north seems to accept the inevitability of the lady of the house not really favoring the lord's bastards (like the Donella Hornwood situation). Thus, duty compels Cat to love her husband, but not Jon, so Jon ends up without her affection.

Even then, according to the author, most of the time she didn't take it out on him (though she did not love him either), and maybe Martin did the readers a disservice presenting a situation of high emotional stress as their first and only interaction together in the series. If we had seen them interacting together in a more typical fashion, we still could understand that this is an area of failure in Catelyn's capabilities for generosity, but it wouldn't have been so highly charged. After all, we accept Ned's less than loving relationship with Theon, even though Theon was an equally innocent child at the time

Cersei is not entirely selfish. She legitimately cares for her children and their well-being. She's a bad mother, to be sure, but she is still a mother who cares about her children.

Though it's arguable that she cares for them narcissistically, although I think Tywin is even worse in that regard.

And it's true that Theon, while terrible, feels more regret, while Cersei just floats out there in Delusionville. They're similar in that they have large egos, but Theon's vulnerable underbelly is within the realms of sane poeple, while Cersei's is twisted out of existence because she is just so warped overall. It's interesting because Theon is one of those guys who really wants to be an alpha male but very much isn't (at least partly because he's caught between cultures), and Cersei also wants to be an alpha male, that's what her desire to be her father is about, but she has a different barrier to it than Theon does (her very gender). I wonder what their different personalities might say about the differences in their situations.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Cersei is not entirely selfish. She legitimately cares for her children and their well-being. She's a bad mother, to be sure, but she is still a mother who cares about her children.

I am not sure that Cersei cares for her children. She is scared because of prophecy who tell her that she will loose crown & life and outlived her children. She could care about Joff, Tomm and Myc, but I got impression that she, when she thinks about proph., she thinks about crown and beauty. Maybe because beautiful queen shall cast her down, but...

[FatCatOberyn]

I am not sure that Cersei cares for her children. She is scared because of prophecy who tell her that she will loose crown & life and outlived her children. She could care about Joff, Tomm and Myc, but I got impression that she, when she thinks about proph., she thinks about crown and beauty. Maybe because beautiful queen shall cast her down, but...

Cersei definitely cares for her children, just in a bad way. Since Joff died, she has been partially like Lysa (although not to such an extreme) - not allowing Tommen to do anything that might get him hurt. She was extremely protective of Joffrey too, and his death made her even more scared for Tommen's life, and she will probably get more so when she hears about what has happened to Myrcella.

[IanOfWinterfell]

I guess this would be my list:

Best

1. Tyrion - always something interesting, plus his wit is great.

2. Dany - Get to see so many other parts of the world through her.

3. Jon - The scenes at the Wall have a strong sense of place and importance.

4. Jamie - Like Tyrion, we usually get to see the political side of things, and he's a really great character.

5. Ned - For what he had. We got to see a lot of the politics and history through Ned.

Worst

1. Arya - I don't know, just can't get into her chapters as much.

2. Brienne - Rather boring each time. She just looks for Sansa and not much else.

3. Bran - I don't like the lack of dialogue in these chapters.

4. Cersei - She's a great villain, but too much to take as a POV character.

5. I guess the Dorne chapters , though I did like them for the most part. Just needed to fill out the 5.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Though it's arguable that she cares for them narcissistically, although I think Tywin is even worse in that regard.

Really? I don't think Tywin loves his kids in a narcissistic manner at all. In fact he thinks all of them are failures in that regard (Cersei because she's stupid and hotheaded - the opposite of Tywin; Jaime because he has no stomach for politics and abandoned his duties as heir; and Tyrion, simply because he "killed" Joanna). Also, the child who actually is most like him, he loathes.

Prior to the death of his wife, I think Tywin did love Cersei and Jaime because they remind him of her... Afterwards I don't think you could describe Tywin's feelings for any of his children as loving or caring. I suppose he cares that they retain power as Lannisters, but really he has no choice, and in fact is ready to hand off Casterly Rock to his Brother and Nephew. On the other hand, Cersei loves Joff/Tomm/Myrc because she really considers them extensions of herself.

[Lady Blackfish]

I think Tywin cares that his children reflect well on him (and on house Lannister, which is basically him), which is what I mean. Perhaps it's not narcissism that's the right word, but his love acceptance is highly conditional and the condition is essentially that his children ought to flatter his ego.

[Datepalm]

I just adore Theon, personally. I mean, god, I would hate to know him, but as a fictional character he's fascinating to read about. He is a villain, properly through and through, not an anti hero or a bad boy that never quite does the unforgivable or always has a seemingly good motivation, but theres flashes of reason, vulnerability and even sympathy there that make him genuinely interesting, unlike, say, Jaime who honestly I think is very nearly as bad a person but who's whole plot in the books is perfectly structured to smudge that.

Cercei is less subtly done, but even her madness has interesting aspects to it - less the 'protecting her children' (Cause, really, she's a terrible parent.) and more her particular delusions of pride and her ambition and her desperate need to build herself a role in the world.

[AryaSnow]

I liked her on first read in aGoT but on reread, I realized she really was a brat. She showed no sympathy whatsoever to Sansa for Lady's death

Sansa showed less empathy for Mycah's death than Arya showed for Lady.

(she basically spit in Sansa's face in their last encounter in aGoT).

Actually, in their last scene together (when Ned told them they are going to come back to Winterfall), Arya tried to comfort Sansa, and Sansa insulted Arya.

[Supakrupa]

Favourites

1. Tyrion - Great character. I love how he just can't keep his little mouth shut!

2. Dany - One tough bitch. Such authority and power in a little girl. Very interesting. (Im a Targaryen fanatic though!)

3. Jaime - Enjoy the transformation he's undergone.

4. Cersei - Despite how selfish and bitchy she is, always found her chapters interesting. In such a powerful position, being inside her head opened up a lot of possibilities for where the story could go.

5. Sansa - I knew she was destined to get a bit of luck and every chapter I read of hers, I kept anticipating some!

Worst

1. Bran - Where on earth is this guy's story going?

2. Brienne - Pointless search which (in my opinion) revealed little of the larger story and comes to an abrupt end.

3. Catelyn - Overly motherly. Reminds me of my mother...

4. Greyjoys - Don't like how they were nothing and now they're taking over the world.

5. Samwell - Boring. Every thought is "I'm a craven".

P.S. First post! Hi everyone!