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Brienne's one word.


Sun Tzu

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Besides, Brienne doesn't even know Littlefinger...

Glad to know that since I thought I've forgotten some vital information since Storm of Swords. So Jaime did never even mention Lord Baelish at all before she set off on her journey?

Anything short of a solution to one of Catelyn's problems won't save her life this time. That elder brother made it clear that there would be no Sansa along the Trident. So she obviously never reached the Trident. Would this be clue enough for Brienne that Sansa went to the Eyrie instead from the fingers? So my third take would be...

Sansa

This could give un-Cat pause enough to re-evaluate her stance towards Brienne. It might even acquit her of some of her supposed treacherous intent towards Catelyn but this is still a long-shot. That Frey at the end of ASOS was guilty by association. Perhaps we'll have an un-Brienne come ADWD.

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Glad to know that since I thought I've forgotten some vital information since Storm of Swords. So Jaime did never even mention Lord Baelish at all before she set off on her journey?

Not that we ever saw, no. If he did, I imagine it wouldn't have been much more than a few witticisms. Suspicions about Littlefinger weren't exactly at the front of Jaime's mind throughout A Storm of Swords. Catelyn could've shared her memories of Petyr with Brienne on occasion, perhaps, but still. No one else seems to suspect Littlefinger to such an extent (not even Tyrion), even those who spent the last fifteen or so years around him in the Red Keep. Why should Brienne, out of the blue?

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OK, this is just fantasy spun from my own twisted imagination, but her one word was "Jaime." Because she had just seen Jaime step out of the woods. Jaime sees what is going on, saves Brienne, then he and Stoneheart start working together to bring down Cersai.

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The BwB know Arya is alive because she was with them at one point. Stoneheart is with the BwB. In the ASoS epilogue the BwB were questioning Merrett Frey as to the whereabouts of Sandor and Arya in Stoneheart's presence.

OMG! I completely forgot about that connection. I'll be quiet now.

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She might scream 'Eddard' and remind Stoneheart that she used to belong to a family that believed in justice, not mindless murder. I think it would be nice to have a new reference to Eddard, it's been such a long time since he was seriously thought of. I don't think he would condone his wife's actions.

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yes, I'm sure Eddard wouldn't be happy with his wife just now.

OTOH, he's probably just tickled pink at the cool new head ornament and gaping hole his oldest son got thanks to the Frey's idea of party games at the Red Wedding.

;)

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My cracker pot theory: the word is "Jaime."

i would think that the word 'jamie' would earn her nothing but a tighter squeeze on the rope.

I hope she said it. Sword I mean. I'd hate for them to die. Her companions that is. Especially brave Podrick.

i think that they're going to live. maybe not ser hyle, but i think that brienne is going to buy herself and pod a stay of execution with whatever word she says.

She might scream 'Eddard' and remind Stoneheart that she used to belong to a family that believed in justice, not mindless murder. I think it would be nice to have a new reference to Eddard, it's been such a long time since he was seriously thought of. I don't think he would condone his wife's actions.

Eddard would without a doubt abhor his wife's actions. Eddard Stark was my favorite character and got killed off at the end of AGOT. Yes, I've been pissed for a long time. I suppose that Brienne could've screamed, "Eddard!" We have to remember that Stoneheart is a half-dead crazy-ass so Brienne would've had to say something that had some sort of value to Stone-bitch. Something about her family. There's no way that Stone knows that her daughters are still alive. I like the Eddard theory but whatever was said it HAD to have been good. Brienne is not going to die...at least not here at this point of the story and to this end. Do i know that for fact? No. But I firmly believe that.

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Eddard would without a doubt abhor his wife's actions.

You really mean that? The first thing we see Eddard do is to behead a perfectly nice fellow for oathbreaking. The last thing we saw Lady Stoneheart do is to hang a perfectly nice wench for oathbreaking. Both Eddard and Stoneheart actually took the time to hear what the delinquent had to say for himself. Neither cared. Oathbreakers must die.

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Nah brienne would scream "I'm a virgin" and star singing the song "like a virgin", cuz she is isn't she?

or the word could be more like : "GYaaaaaaaaaaaa" then she died and then when the band has gone thoros revives her and she continues the journey as a virgin who died and seriously never gets laid. Who'd do a freakish huge, ugly, dead woman?

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Nah brienne would scream "I'm a virgin" and star singing the song "like a virgin", cuz she is isn't she?

or the word could be more like : "GYaaaaaaaaaaaa" then she died and then when the band has gone thoros revives her and she continues the journey as a virgin who died and seriously never gets laid. Who'd do a freakish huge, ugly, dead woman?

Westeros is full of wierdo losers drunk enough to do her.

I don't think that I could stomach Brienne (or even visualize) in a Madonna outfit from the 80's.

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You really mean that? The first thing we see Eddard do is to behead a perfectly nice fellow for oathbreaking. The last thing we saw Lady Stoneheart do is to hang a perfectly nice wench for oathbreaking. Both Eddard and Stoneheart actually took the time to hear what the delinquent had to say for himself. Neither cared. Oathbreakers must die.

Unfortunately for me, I left myself wide open for that retort.

Ok, oathbreaking. The whole story opens up with Eddard executing a man for oathbreaking. Stoneheart, although she heard what Brienne had to say, was/is executing her for an oath that wasn't exactly broken in my view. Her oath isn't finished. She returned Jamie to KL. However, neither of the Stark girls were there any longer. So, she has been questing to find them or at least one of them. I would think that after hanging in the company of the outlaws that Stoneheart has learned that Arya still lives. I don't see that Brienne has broken her vow. I will admit that she didn't exactly say the smart things in the company of Stoneheart by defending Jamie Lannister. That probably wasn't the best thing to tell Stoneheart...I don't think that Brienne is going to die. I don't believe it for a second (at least not at the end of a rope from Stoneheart).

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Stoneheart, although she heard what Brienne had to say, was/is executing her for an oath that wasn't exactly broken in my view. Her oath isn't finished. She returned Jamie to KL.

That's not the oath she breaks.

1. Brienne is Catelyn's sworn sword.

2. Catelyn gives her a direct order: kill Jaime

3. Brienne refuses

That's what their entire conversation is about. Brienne has explicitly, clearly, and consciously broken her oath of allegiance to Catelyn Stark. She is supposed to click her heels and say "Yes Sir. My Lady," take her Valyrian Blade and kill Jaime. Two books ago she would have been thrilled at that command. Now she refuses it. You and I may think she has pretty good reasons to refuse it, but that's not what Her Oath was supposed to mean. It doesn't say "I promise to protect you and do whateter you ask of me, provided I think it's a good idea in the first place."

So the fact that Brienne breaks her oath to Lady Stark is not open to debate.

What one could debate is if Catelyn, symmetrically, breaks her own oath to Brienne by giving her a shameful task. Remember, Cat promised not to do that. The counterargument would be that Cat is in no position whatsoever to even have the hint of an idea that Jaime is not the vilest man alive. If her command to kill Jaime had made sense (morally, legally, emotionally) two books ago, it makes even more sense now. From where Cat is standing, there pretty much is nobody else in Westeros more deserving than Jaime of being executed.

The only way out of this is to say that nobody is ever allowed to order her sworn sword to kill anybody else. (I would agree with that, but it makes the whole setup of chivalry and oaths and so on pretty futile.) Otherwise, Cat is completely rational in having Brienne kill Jaime, given the information she has.

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I don't see where saying "sword" does much. She was given the choice and chose and now she's getting what she chose, the noose. Why would changing her mind mean diddly fuck to them now? How are they supposed to ensure that she will stick with this new decision since she couldn't stick with the last one and just die? She's trying to save her neck and the people she's traveling with. She'll say anything to get out of it when that noose is around her neck. That's what they'll be thinking.

It's like...

CIA: "Listen up, Agent Dumbass! You got two choices, you can either go over to Russia and get us the stats on their new missile defense system or you can rot in a windowless cell here in the States and we'll kill your family just so we won't have to answer any of their questions about you. What's it gonna be?"

Agent Dumbass: "Uh...I can't spy, that's just wrong! What would mama say?"

CIA: "OK, take him to his cell."

before the door can close...

Agent Dumbass; "No wait! I'll do it!"

CIA: "Ha ha yeah right, you're just saying that so we won't leave ya in that cell and kill your family. We can't trust you now, you'll just go over to the Russians and tell them all about the plan or go into hiding. I'll tell your mama you said 'hi' before I slit her throat."

She has to say something that's either just a last desperate cry like "Jaime!" before she dies or it has to be something that would cause the BWB to rush over and cut the ropes to find out more. "Sword" ain't enough to cause that reaction. There could very well be something Brienne knows that we don't. Something she heard while she was with Renly perhaps. I dunno.

I think if she said "Jaime!" GRRM woulda put that in. To leave it at a cliffhanger like that implies that it's something more. And if she dies like that then that pretty much makes most of her PoV chapters pointless. Why have her meet Gendry and make the connection only to have her die shortly after? Most agree, GRRM doesn't waste words like that.

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So the fact that Brienne breaks her oath to Lady Stark is not open to debate.

HE, I snipped the quote as its too long to burden the board with and anyway what I want to say pertains to the general spirit of it.

Just wished to say that you are doing a really great job in clarifying the issue here.

Found your posts in general of value to me. Thanks!

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That's not the oath she breaks.

1. Brienne is Catelyn's sworn sword.

2. Catelyn gives her a direct order: kill Jaime

3. Brienne refuses

That's what their entire conversation is about. Brienne has explicitly, clearly, and consciously broken her oath of allegiance to Catelyn Stark. She is supposed to click her heels and say "Yes Sir. My Lady," take her Valyrian Blade and kill Jaime. Two books ago she would have been thrilled at that command. Now she refuses it. You and I may think she has pretty good reasons to refuse it, but that's not what Her Oath was supposed to mean. It doesn't say "I promise to protect you and do whateter you ask of me, provided I think it's a good idea in the first place."

So the fact that Brienne breaks her oath to Lady Stark is not open to debate.

What one could debate is if Catelyn, symmetrically, breaks her own oath to Brienne by giving her a shameful task. Remember, Cat promised not to do that. The counterargument would be that Cat is in no position whatsoever to even have the hint of an idea that Jaime is not the vilest man alive. If her command to kill Jaime had made sense (morally, legally, emotionally) two books ago, it makes even more sense now. From where Cat is standing, there pretty much is nobody else in Westeros more deserving than Jaime of being executed.

The only way out of this is to say that nobody is ever allowed to order her sworn sword to kill anybody else. (I would agree with that, but it makes the whole setup of chivalry and oaths and so on pretty futile.) Otherwise, Cat is completely rational in having Brienne kill Jaime, given the information she has.

I knew that I was getting into a losing argument here. So, I will backpedal.

-Jamie Lannister deserves to be executed for a number of reasons. I will name some of the reasons that pop to mind: His incestual affair with his sister while married to Robert; His assault on Ned Stark (although he didn't fight) when Ned was the Hand; His broken solemn oath to defend his king and them killing the king himself (Targ); I don't think that the crippling of Bran Stark is worthy of death being that the boy did not die (but this is Westeros and it may be warranted here). It's funny because that's all that I can think about. I suppose that he could have earned death for setting condemned Tyrion free but only Tyrion and Varys know that he did that. Ser Gregor has done far worse things: rape, pillage, maim, disfigure, torture and kill not only men (not the rape) but women and children (Targs). The Hound, Polliver, Vargo...they have committed for worse acts against humanity than Jamie but I think that being who he is and from what house he hails from he's held to a higher standard and that could be the only reason that I can see as to why he would be the person who has earned execution more than anyone else.

Jamie has changed and there's no doubt about it from his captivity at Riverrun to his trip back to KL and I believe it's a change for the better. Ultimately, I don't believe that it will save him in the end. He may have mended his ways and has bought into the novel idea of honor now but his deeds have preceeded all of this and as Jamie once put it "I have shit for honor" is very accurate. His deeds are too well known throughout the realm and even across the sea. I think there may be a shot at atonement and redemption but I think that forgiveness will not come to him.

You're right about her giving Brienne the order to slay Jamie and Brienne refused. I forgot about that. I don't know if you can order your sworn sword to kill anyone. But then again, Cat was killed and was dead for what 2 days? Do the oaths still keep since she was killed? I don't remember the particulars of 'oathdom.' We know that Beric gave up his spirit for Cat to 'live' again.

You're right again about Cat being rational by ordering Brienne to kill Jamie. In Cat's eyes, Jamie broke his vow to her by taking Riverrun. He vowed not to take up arms against either Stark or Tully. Cat also thinks that Jamie was behind the Red Wedding, thus breaking not only the rules of hospitality but breaking the vow mentioned in the line before this based on what Roose Bolton says to Robb as Bolton thrusts the sword through Robb's heart "Jamie Lannister sends his regards...".

Brienne is making the mistake of trying to reason with a woman that believes that she's lost her entire family (Ned, Robb, Hoster, Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Edmure and herself as well). I do believe that Harwin has probably informed her that Arya was alive or when he last saw her she was alive. Which brings me back to what I've been wanting to know all along...what word could she possibly have said that could stop her execution?

HE, I snipped the quote as its too long to burden the board with and anyway what I want to say pertains to the general spirit of it.

Just wished to say that you are doing a really great job in clarifying the issue here.

Found your posts in general of value to me. Thanks!

I knew that post wasn't directed at me. I love this board because I like to think (or used to think) that I was fairly decent in terms of Westeros savvy until I came here and realize that I am a peasant in the company of lords when it comes to knowledge about this.

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In Cat's eyes, Jamie broke his vow to her by taking Riverrun. He vowed not to take up arms against either Stark or Tully.

And not only that. Cat presumably got her information about Jaime's involvement via Tom o' Sevens. My authorial dictate, the same Tom overhears Jaime's explanation of how he is going to take Riverrun: by flinging Catelyn's newborn nephew over the ramparts. (Jaime actually made sure the singer overhears that bit. Little does he know that this travels directly to Cat.)

So, from Cat's point of view: Jaime broke his vow about returning her daughters Arya and Sansa. Instead, the Lannisters have shipped Arya to the Dreadfort, and married Sansa to the grotesque imp, who presumably defiles her every night. Jaime also plotted to kill her son Robb, making sure to send his regards as some sort of sick joke. And he boasts about how he would kill her nephew. Did we mention he crippled her son Bran? And attacked her husband Ned, breaking his leg? Rickon seems to be the only familiy member of Cat that Jaime hasn't tried to harm.

Pretty good list.

Brienne is making the mistake of trying to reason with a woman that believes that she's lost her entire family (Ned, Robb, Hoster, Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Edmure and herself as well).

She doesn't reason. Brienne is as tongue-tied as ever. And what exactly is it that Brienne is supposed to be able to explain, if only Cat would listen? Cat, or anybody else, for that matter? "Yes, these things are all true, but he looked really hot in the bathtub!"

I was fairly decent in terms of Westeros savvy until I came here and realize that I am a peasant in the company of lords when it comes to knowledge about this.
You're doing fine; don't feel intimidated. Welcome to the board.
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