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Barristan Selmy: Hero or Turncoat?


Blackfish Blues

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I didn't want to go off-topic in the Dany the Mad Queen thread by continuing the discussion about Selmy, so I've taken the liberty of creating a place for it, since many interesting points have been made on the other thread. It's also a way to celebrate the casting of Barristan in the HBO series, and it will be vastly interesting to see how the actor will embody the contradictions that follow.

It seems that readers see Selmy as either the last honourable knight of the good old times, or a turncoat who has switched kings at least four times (Aerys, Robert, Joffrey, Daenerys). I think both visions are acceptable, and certainly people in Westeros will take one or the other side when Daenerys invades (assuming they understand that Arstan = Barristan).

My opinion: I like Selmy a lot, especially because of these contradictions. He is shades of grey, not black or white, despite his white armour. We've seen little of him, but he's a very nuanced character. Somewhere (Jaime reading the Kingsguard records?) it says that Selmy joined the Kingsguard at 23, so he wasn't a kid making a rash decision; by Westeros standards he was a grown man, wordly enough to know what it meant.

I believe, as others have said, that such an ancient institution entails vows towards the Crown, not towards the ruling king. We have never seen a white knight take his vows (Jaime flashback, please, GRRM); I think that probably the words mentions the ruling House, but the vow itself is sacred, and thus meant to be obeyed whatever the ruling House is. But I could be mistaken - maybe the Kingsguard was established by the Targaryens and so was always meant as a Targaryen institution.

Anyway, the first turning point of Selmy's life comes with the "War of the Usurper". He fights for Aerys Targaryen, but ultimately submits to Robert. The obvious comparison is with Lord Commander Gerold Hightower, Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent, who fight to defend... something or someone (cue R+L=J theory here), but certainly remain loyal to the Targaryens to the death. In my view they are pictured as the perfect knights of old who die for the cause; but as much as I love Dayne, I wonder how much more honourable it is to die for a mad king than live for a possibly better king.

I'm trying to remember a quote, something like "Better to live humbly for a cause than die bravely for it". Can anyone help me? Anyway, this is what Selmy does. He is the realist who lives, compared to the idealists who die. Better or worse? Hard to say. I feel that after doing his best to save the Targaryens, he accepts the fait accompli and decides to do his best for Robert Baratheon. Serving Joffrey after Robert comes natural, especially because I think that an old-timer like Selmy doesn't have the slightest suspicion about incest.

I think Selmy did not remain indifferent to Joffrey's excesses, just like I think he was deeply troubled by Aerys'. I base this judgement only from what little we see of Selmy in the books. Jaime, too, wasn't happy with serving a sadistic king. But they both had sworn - witness the bad rep attached to Jaime, despite the fact that he rid Westeros of a mad king. Selmy plods on because he has sworn. Until Joffrey gets rid of him - and I think that scene conveys the humiliation of the old noble knight, but also his rage (and maybe relief) at having had to serve a little pervert of a king, because of his vows.

So now Selmy's free, and here comes the second turning point. He rejoins Daenerys, and not simply because she's the last Targaryen; he gauges her character before committing himself to her. From the point of view of someone who has always tried to do his best while bound by vows and expectations, it is a sort of redemption. I'm definitely looking forward to what Arstan will tell Daenerys. And also to see his PoV (if only!) about the morally dubious choices he's made in his life, and whether he's at peace with them.

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I see him as someone who is addicted to monarchy. There are other ways that he could have gone after being fired by Joffrey, but he makes a beeline straight for Daenerys. It's like he can't help himself. I think that this addiction to crownies is kind of what compromises his character; even though he is honorable and sagacious, whenever he's around someone with a shiny head it's like he gets all excited and can't stop himself from vowing to serve them until the end of time.

It's gratifying though to note that he doesn't completely compromise all of his ethical values. When Robert was talking about having Daenerys and Viserys whacked, I think he's one of the only two members of his small council who has the empathy to see why something like that would be wrong and the courage to speak up.

I'm hoping that he continues to try to be this normalizing influence in Daenerys's court. Now that he's been outed, he has no reason -- other than job security -- to be afraid of giving the Queen her beloved "honest counsel". Daenerys does not have a mother or a father figure in her life, and has no peers or equals in her dominion. She needs someone who can pull her back from the edge of the abyss and I don't see anyone else currently in Meereen who has the stature and moral authority to fill that role. Barristan can still be a hero, but not in the same way that he was in Duskendale!

I think that probably the words mentions the ruling House, but the vow itself is sacred, and thus meant to be obeyed whatever the ruling House is.

My problem with that is that the Seven Kingdoms, and any accessory institutions like the small council and the Kingsguard, were likely created by House Targaryen. Before they showed up, there wasn't a Seven Kingdoms, or a Kingsguard, or an Iron Throne. The vows would probably mention the Targaryens because there really aren't any other royal families running around and when the vows were written (around Aegon's time, I would assume) I don't think anyone was foreseeing any dynastic changes even though to us they might seem inevitable.

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Precisely when did ser Barristan make the decision to turn coat, and what options did he have?

He was a prisoner. Wounded prisoner. Robert declared that he would not kill a man for being loyal or for fighting well. But Barristan was, for the moment, under care of Robert´s maester, in his camp.

When Barristan got better... Prisoners are commonly released by prisoner exchange or ransom. But Barristan´s side was wiped out. Willum Darry certainly had no Baratheon prisoners of war in Braavos to exchange for having Barristan rejoin them in Braavos.

What precisely did Robert do with the masses of non-Kingsguard enemies taken captive at Trident? Tywin offered to many Targaryen loyalists at King´s Landing the choice to go to Wall, or have their heads on spikes. Robert pardoned a lot who were allowed to bend knee and become his bannermen. And probably would not say no to anyone who wanted to go to Wall despite being offered to keep lands and families.

What did Robert do to captured Targaryen loyalists who declined to bend knee? They would have been few, but were there any, at all?

When did Barristan turn coat? Did Robert send him to sail with Stannis and bring him the heads of Rhaella and Viserys?

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My problem with that is that the Seven Kingdoms, and any accessory institutions like the small council and the Kingsguard, were likely created by House Targaryen. Before they showed up, there wasn't a Seven Kingdoms, or a Kingsguard, or an Iron Throne. The vows would probably mention the Targaryens because there really aren't any other royal families running around and when the vows were written (around Aegon's time, I would assume) I don't think anyone was foreseeing any dynastic changes even though to us they might seem inevitable.

I don't know. I'm guessing here, but royal lines do sometimes die out, so actually mentioning Targaryen in the vows would be counterintuitive, IMHO. Better keep it vague and say "protect the king and his family, obey his commands", etc.

As for father figures, Dany had one (sort of) in Jorah.

I'm hoping Tyrion will give Dany the full account of Aerys' reign, and that of Robert if there is time, with Selmy agreeing and disagreeing where suitable. Tyrion will be able to speak more freely.

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Selmy's betrayal to House Targaryen is not that great, although Barristan himself is very aware of his failings, and not afraid to admit them in front of Daenerys in ASoS. At my first read I was pretty irritated by the fact that he himself was that blunt and unforgiving about them, but he obviously knew better how to speak to a Queen than I do ;-).

He fought for the Targaryens at the Trident, and was willing to die for them. He would have died, if Robert had not intervened. Accepting Robert's pardon later certainly did not feel as bad afterwards as it should have felt. And he certainly convinced himself that as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and member of the Small Council he could influence things on the top levels to protect Rhaella and her son in exile. He still does this, when joins forces with Ned and speaks up against sending assassins after the Targaryens in exile. Although he does not say this, it is quite possible that he did not want to part of a regime that intended to kill the people he somewhat still considered as the the true heirs to the Throne.

It certainly was not easy for him to serve the Baratheon regime. He most likely had his doubts, his weak moments, especially as he was forced to co-work with Jaime and an entirely average KG. But he did so, because he thought he had no other choice, and because he feared he could not be what he used to be (Barristan the Bold, the most famous and honorable knight alive) in exile.

I think Varys evaluation of Barristan's character is entirely correct. When he visists Ned, he says 'Barristan Selmy loves only his honor'. That sounds pretty rude, but its meaning is that the most important thing to Selmy is being a Kingsguard. He says as much - and how much he consciously sacrificed to fulfill this dream of his - when Joffrey fires him (the talk about how he lost both bride and seat of his fathers).

Varys, completely aware of how Varys feels, destroys the most important thing Selmy has left in his life, by convincing Cersei of firing him.

He just needed somebody to give him a little nudge in the right direction.

The only way Selmy can react is to try to rebuild his honor is by serving those who deserve his service. And these people can only be the 'real royal family', those he once served, those he swore his oath to first.

That he is wary and more aware what are the consequences of serving a wrong and/or mad monarch is all the better (both to him and Dany), and completely understandable, as his journey to Dany is a journey of redemption. He wants to serve a right and sane Queen, not just somebody wearing a crown.

I doubt that any oath sworn during the Targaryen reign was to the non-dynastic neutral institution of 'the Crown' - the Targaryens were Westeros, they created this whole new system, the Kingsguard, and the Iron Throne, and they would certainly deem the thought improper that their reign might come to an end, or let possible turncloaks a loophole - something like this feels weird: 'My oath was to the Crown, not to House Targaryen, so I serve whoever sits on that stupid throne your ancestor made, and you can do nothing about'. So I'd assume that Robert had all those who were pardoned renew their particular oaths, now sworn to him and House Baratheon, when he took the throne.

I always felt that the slavish tendency with which Robert continued the line, as if he was a Targaryen, too, would backfire on the new regime. If he had built a new capital, or at least a new castle as his seat, he would have a chance to build a new Baratheon Realm, and make a difference.

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I see him as someone who is addicted to monarchy. There are other ways that he could have gone after being fired by Joffrey, but he makes a beeline straight for Daenerys. It's like he can't help himself. I think that this addiction to crownies is kind of what compromises his character; even though he is honorable and sagacious, whenever he's around someone with a shiny head it's like he gets all excited and can't stop himself from vowing to serve them until the end of time.

I think the fact that Joff sent men to kill him probably limited whatever "other ways" he could have gone. At that point it becomes pretty clear that the crown is not a former employer giving him a nice severance package, but an enemy actively seeking his death. Not an easy position to be in. And what else does a former knight of the Kingsguard do? Open a brothel? Become a hedge knight? Swear his sword to some minor lordling for a few coppers and a sleeping space in the stables? I mean, we're talking about one of, if not the, most renound knight of his generation.

Also, I do not think he would have made a beeline for Dany if not for someone (Varys, most like) pointing him in that direction. Otherwise he likely ends up with Robb, Renly or Stannis. He certainly can't end up with a lord sworn to Joff, as we know where that will end. And what lord sworn to Renly, Robb or Stannis would accept Barristan's allegiance without telling him that he really needed to serve the "King" directly?

I think at that point his fame and renown limited the choices he really had.

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Made a thread about the Catch-22 of the life of a Kingsguard. The position exists to draw in the most honorable men in the realm and then dishonor them with the men they're forced to serve and the actions they're forced to perform. The unthinking nature of this "life of service" too often makes them the instruments of evil and suffering. After all, how much ill could have been undone had Selmy not daringly rescued Aerys during the Defiance of Dukensdale? Say Aerys was slain there and Rhaegar inherited the realm. Think of how much death and misery could potentially have been averted.

Instead Barristan brought him back, and even worse, more insane then ever. He rescued a monster. Even moreso, he didn't learn from this. His morality was a simple one - serve the king. It would seem he internalized the lesson of Gerold Hightower: "It is not our place to judge the king" to the extreme. He would seem to have been his prized pupil. After all Barristan was fully prepared to serve another monster, Joffrey, without a second thought had he not been stripped of his White Cloak. To some extent you admire such a simplistic loyalty, but it's impossible from a modern perspective, not to judge the end result of such honor. To look at the alternative figure, Jaime, and not think the latter did more good in the world through his lack of honor. The modern world has shown us where the unthinking, unquestioning soldier can lead. I'm sure most Nazi officers were just "following orders" too, but I would argue it takes stronger sense of personal values a more firmly planted internal compass, to understand when the morally right thing to do is to disobey.

So I would argue Barristan is neither a hero nor a turncloak. He was capable of moments of great daring and courage, but I can't help feeling a true hero would've made a stand at one point. He had years of opportunities to do so. In the same way, he never betrayed Aerys. He did everything he possibly could in service to the King and nearly died for his efforts. That he lived on to witness the crowning of a new King was outside of his control. I think betrayal requires a conscious, willful action to turn on one you were once loyal to...and I don't think Barristan's accepting service with Robert rises to that level. But I can understand there being some disagreement here.

Overall, I think Barristan is just a man who never thought too deeply about the choices he made and the life he lived until his whole world was thrown into disarray. He's not a bad man for believing the skewed priorities and morality of the world he lived, but when viewed from a modern perspective it's impossible to unquestioningly praise the man for his sense of honor. We live in the grey, whereas he lives in the black and white not understanding there is no such thing as pure black and pure white.

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I think the fact that Joff sent men to kill him probably limited whatever "other ways" he could have gone. At that point it becomes pretty clear that the crown is not a former employer giving him a nice severance package, but an enemy actively seeking his death.

He was offered a severance passage. He turned it down -- rather rudely, by the way -- and then stormed out like a giant infant. I agree with his decision here, but it was hardly the only one he could have taken, was it? If he had been a different guy, a more docile person, he could have taken Joffrey's sinecure. After all, from the Lannisters perspective having a national hero and the acclaimed greatest knight of all of Westeros just further adds to the legitimacy and the glory of their government. Yes, they did try to have Barristan arrested after he basically came out and declared himself Joffrey's enemy, but that's not all Joffrey's fault.

I agree with you about his fame and renown; becoming a hedge knight wasn't in the cards -- at least, not in Westeros! But he had options; he simply chose not to take them because in his view and in his code of ethics, they were all reprehensible. Good for him!

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I think that Barristan not immediately pleading himself to Dany speaks as too how much he has grown from the start of the series. Selmy had served three kings, two mad and one who was rather mediocre. By the time he goes looking for Dany he wants to be sure that he isn't repeating that mistake. He isn't content to serve a king anymore, he wants to serve a great king. He has learned that his honor can never be more than that of whom he serves.

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I found the passage:

Here is the Crown's generous offer:

Lord Varys spoke, gentler than the others. “We are not unmindful of your service, good ser. Lord Tywin Lannister has generously agreed to grant you a handsome tract of land north of Lannisport, beside the sea, with gold and men sufficient to build you a stout keep, and servants to see to your every need.”

Here is how he answers that:

Ser Barristan looked up sharply. “A hall to die in, and men to bury me. I thank you, my lords . . . but I spit upon your pity.”

And then he starts stripping, right there in front of everyone!:

He reached up and undid the clasps that held his cloak in place, and the heavy white garment slithered from his shoulders to fall in a heap on the floor. His helmet dropped with a clang. “I am a knight,” he told them. He opened the silver fastenings of his breastplate and let that fall as well. “I shall die a knight.”

“A naked knight, it would seem,” quipped Littlefinger.

And then he pulls out a deadly weapon:

Finally he drew his sword.

And makes a veiled threat to the King's life:

He flung his sword at the foot of the Iron Throne. [...] "Perhaps Lord Stannis will chance to sit on it when he takes your throne.”

After that display, is it small wonder that Baratheon was concerned about the stability of his old protector? After getting fired, this old man removes most of his clothes and starts prancing, throwing swords around and threatening his boss. In the modern world, this would be seen as a precursor to a workplace shooting by a disgruntled ex-employee. Joff was right to be concerned, after the discovery of a traitor operating at the highest levels of the government, the death of his father, and the suspicious disappearances of several of his top councillors, about Barristan's behavio

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He was offered a severance passage. He turned it down -- rather rudely, by the way -- and then stormed out like a giant infant. I agree with his decision here, but it was hardly the only one he could have taken, was it? If he had been a different guy, a more docile person, he could have taken Joffrey's sinecure.

Did Robert offer Barristan a severance package, or not?

Jaime clearly was NOT offered a severance package, or Tywin would have jumped at the chance. Robert could easily have declared that Targaryen dynasty was over, so were Kingsguard vows, and the surviving members (at that point, five of them) were free of service, and could hold lands, find other employers or marry as they pleased. But doing so would have meant Jaime going back to Tywin as heir to Casterly Rock. Eddard demanded to send Jaime to Wall; but Jon persuaded Robert not to do so - it would have offended Tywin, while losing a hostage. Releasing Jaime would also meant losing the hostage - so Robert chose to pardon Jaime yet regard the Kingsguard vows as binding.

The precedent of Jaime was made soon after Robert arrived on Iron Throne, before Eddard departed to relieve Storm´s End. Which meant that when Barristan got better, Robert was somewhat bound not to release Barristan to civilian life. And I do not think that Robert would ever have allowed Barristan to join Viserys.

Serving Viserys was simply not an option. Barristan could perhaps have demanded to remain prisoner indefinitely. The only ways he could have actually served Viserys was either by promising to serve Robert and then breaking that promise to flee to Viserys, or else promising to serve the Watch and breaking that promise with desertion.

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Mad Monkey,

thanks of the quote. I did not remember that Varys included Lord Tywin's name in this 'reward', to connect the leadership of the Lannister regime to this charade of the boy king. But obviously neither Cersei nor Varys - whose idea this whole thing was - ever cared to tell Lord Tywin about his most generous offer ;-).

That strengthens the suspicion that Varys knew how Selmy would react, and that there was no chance that he would accept the offer.

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Did Robert offer Barristan a severance package, or not?

I have no idea; I haven't received the prequel books yet in the mail and I can't remember if it was mentioned in any of the ones we have now. I was talking about Joffrey, and Ser Barristan's refusal to accept not being a Kingsguard anymore.

But obviously neither Cersei nor Varys - whose idea this whole thing was - ever cared to tell Lord Tywin about his most generous offer ;-).

Why would they? Either he knows about it, in which case why tell him again, or they lied about it, in which case they better not tell him! :D

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Mad Monkey,

they did not tell Lord Tywin, of course! Else he would not be that pissed about the Selmy incident when sent Tyrion to KL to look if there were heads fit for spikes there.

They would never got his approval on this, but it is nice that Varys acted as if he had his approval. There it is, boys and girls, Varys really can lie, and does so, too, in this series ;-).

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My guess is that Robert offered Selmy a severance package in every sense of the word - serve me loyally and with honor or be severed from your head.

He famously declared that he would not kill a man for being loyal to his king.

If Barristan asked to go to the Wall, Robert would have agreed, although he would have preferred that such a famous knight continue to serve the kingdom and win honour in Kingsguard.

But what if Barristan wanted to leave Kingsguard service?

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They would never got his approval on this, but it is nice that Varys acted as if he had his approval. There it is, boys and girls, Varys really can lie, and does so, too, in this series ;-).

How can I believe what you just said, in light of this new evidence?

My guess is that Robert offered Selmy a severance package in every sense of the word - serve me loyally and with honor or be severed from your head.

:rofl:

But what if Barristan wanted to leave Kingsguard service?

I can't be sure. Robert doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would kill someone like Barristan for wanting to retire home and spend more time with his grandkids--

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Honour, we learn in AFFC, is a horse.

Whether we like it or not Barristan did serve Aerys II, Robert, Joffrey and now Dany. Once he had sworn his Kingsguard oath then he is honour bound potentialy to carry out dishonourable orders and protect dishonourable people, while at the same time he embodies an ideal of knightly virtue and honour.

Stepping back a bit it is Dunk, no true knight he (though not in Sansa's sense), who steps in to protect a woman and acts out the ideal of knightly conduct while it is the kingsguard who have to protect her abuser in THK. It is Sandor the unkighted, having experienced the day to day reality of knighty conduct at home, who gives us his very functional description of a knight (a trained man with a sword and a horse or something like that). That's what knights are in his opinion, men trained in the skillful exercise of violence. Barristan at first represents the opposite point of view. He appears to be about the ideal of knighthood, the frothy nice stuff: rescuing people, being true to your oath, looking good. But this comes at a price, you have to grow scales over your eyes. Your obedience to your oath leads you to strange places - are you truer to your kingsguard oath after the death of Aerys if you take the black, flee in to exile or agree to serve with the man who killed the last king?

Barristan is one of those characters who forces themselves into a dishonourable position through trying to be true to their own ideals of honour. A hero? Well he is capable of heroic acts, but also of turning a blind eye to a dishonourable situation in his service to Aerys and then alongside Jaime the Kingslayer. A turncoat, certainly, but he could also certainy justify his actions.

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Technically, he might have plotted to escape when he was getting better from his wounds, the rest of Kingsguard had been hunted down and Dorne had submitted. Then again, he had his doubts about Viserys. He clearly says that he was uncomfortable with the madness of Aerys and feared about Viserys.

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Slightly off the topic.

Did Robert and Ned intend to use Jaime as a hostage? Because I remember in AGoT when Jon Arryn died, Robert was thinking of making Jaime the Warden of the East, and Ned objected because Tywin was holding the position of Warden of the West, which would be succeeded by Jaime upon his death. Doesn't this mean that both Ned and Robert seemed to be prepared to let Jaime succeed his father, and then where would the Kingsguard vows be?

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