MLB 2010, part 3

[naz]

[btw, is it wrong to start a new thread when the previous part isn't officially closed yet? I didn't want to start a new discussion with post #398, so I just started a new thread.]

I'm surprised no one's brought up the latest Ozzie Guillen rant yet. Is it because it might be a case of Ozzie being Ozzie? By the reactions he's getting, he seems to have at least struck a nerve with some folks. (No link, sorry... I can't imagine everyone hasn't heard this already. Google Ozzie if you haven't.)

Anyway, one the one hand, I agree with Tim Kurkjian to some extent, who said that the major flaw with Ozzie's argument is that there are simply far more Latino players in any given clubhouse for someone to accurately compare their situation adjusting to English with that of an Asian player, who's usually the only one of his kind on any given team.

But then, as Bobby Valentine mentions in this NYT article about the Mets (who famously sign lots of Latino players), it's not the job of other Latino players or coaches to help them translate things into Spanish. Is it really that hard for a club with a $100 million payroll to hire *one* dedicated Spanish interpreter? Would that be enough to quell the concerns?

Apparently, there are a few teams (the Yankees, for one) that actually have programs to help their Latino players integrate into English-speaking society, but I can see how the minor leagues may be a far cry from the Yankees, and can understand how a fresh young Latino player playing in the minors may have to adjust pretty damn quickly and have a hard time of it.

On Ozzie's other point about Latino players not being trained properly about avoiding steroid use, I really don't know enough to have an opinion.

[Jaxom 1974]

It seems as though no one cares about the Giants possible resurgence or the Dodgers woe.

I'm a Cubs fan. I gotta bigger worries. West Coast baseball. Waste of air time... :P

[naz]

Trisk,

While I understand (and sort of agree with) the viewpoint, it's not any more objective than Ozzie's. Look who it's coming from. He asked four "GM type people". What else are GM's going to say? "Yes, Ozzie's right; we're discriminatory against an ethnicity that represents a major fan base. We'll get right on it."

Point is, even if Ozzie's inflating the issue, how hard is it to go ahead and hire a translator?

[Fez]

I do think there is weight to the argument made on PTI yesterday though; namely that the first Latino players probably did have as a big an adjustment to make as Asian players do today, they weren't given translators, etc., and MLB learned from that mistake and is trying to do better this time around with the new group.

[smegma]

I think it's a complex issue that can't be summed up with "Ozzie is wrong" or "Ozzie is right". This was became a talking point for him because his son had to be the translator on the minor league team he played for. Quite a few "front office types" have chimed in saying he's wrong, while many players and former players have supported what he is saying. There is obviously a disconnect between the two. I do believe the teams that say they are trying to do a lot, but maybe it is just not happening as fast as it needs to be. I'm sure it has improved since Ozzie was a young player, and there are differences between the players that come here from Asia and those that come here from Latin countries. Usually money, hype, and resources made available to them.

The other issue he raised, the one about PED's, is something of note as well. If you are a poor kid in Caracas and the difference between having your family starve and having the potential to play for an MLB team is a shot or a pill, that's not a choice. 99 out of a 100 of them aren't even going to think about it, and I can't say that I would not do the same. It's not cheating to them - it's a way to save their entire families from a level of economic destitution that we can't even fathom in the U.S. Again, in Asian countries - most of the players that come here are already established and have money, so less likely to be tempted by a magic, but illegal, substance.

[Caliban]

I think every pro team in japan has an american or two, and there are always american managers over there. I havent heard of it being difficult for those americans to assimilate (there was recently a matt murton article saying how much he was enjoying playing in japan, and hes tearing the cover off.)

To a degree I agree with Ozzie. These domincans and venezuelans ets grow up in baseball camps in their latin american home countries. When they get over here they have absolutely no idea what to do. Usually (the better ones with spring training invites) have agents who basically babysit them. Concepts like opening a checking account are fairly foreign to them, purchesing a car, finding a place to live etc. I have heard that being an agent of a latin player is much much more intense work then an american player because they need to help assimilate the clients, and the expectations are greater. You also read stories every ST about Soriano taking in about 5 players and buying everything for them so they can pocket the stipends and start to learn about budgeting their extrmely small basball incomes once they get put back in the minors. So it seems like that assimilation is facillitated by agents and other latino players.

Other then say Jose Contreres no MLB team has made a massive financial comittment to an already professional latino player, so its not apples to apples because the majority of japanese players that come over and get the tranlator are already established Japanese Baseball stars, are being paid huge sums of money (probably are already rich by american standards), and are earmarked to the majors either already or very shortly. They also have like 50 japanese media people and 1000 japanese tourists at every game, but no other japanese in the clubhouse.

Its jsut completely different. I dont know how asain players in the minors are treated. IT would be more fair to compare the treatment Starlin Castro got in the minors to the treatment of Hak-Ju Lee (korean cubs SS prospect). That would be apples to apples.

Ozzie really knows when to pick his spots, and he definately wants to be the voice of central and south america.

[smegma]

Ozzie really knows when to pick his spots, and he definately wants to be the voice of central and south america.

Yup. I think it's a good thing, too. He is a hero in his native country, and he knows that people listen to him - and I think someone should. Ozzie is using his status as a guy that "can say anything" very effectively in this matter. He is trying to make a positive impact, and I totally respect him for it.

I don't know how much of it is his doing, but since he became the White Sox manager, there are radio broadcasts in Spanish, Latino-based White Sox television shows, and a weekly talk show on The Score for Spanish-speaking listeners. I listened to it on Sunday for the first time - and while my Spanish isn't very good, I was able to understand enough to know that these were informed callers who really appreciated having a "voice" on a baseball show.

[Caliban]

I listened to it on Sunday for the first time - and while my Spanish isn't very good, I was able to understand enough to know that these were informed callers who really appreciated having a "voice" on a baseball show.

Thats Ozzie's son show your talkign about right. I listen to, and then dip in and out of english enough for me to understand it.

The PED issue, Id take steriods easily, and change my age if if were in their shoes.

[Jaxom 1974]

I think every pro team in japan has an american or two, and there are always american managers over there. I havent heard of it being difficult for those americans to assimilate (there was recently a matt murton article saying how much he was enjoying playing in japan, and hes tearing the cover off.)

Is that where Murton got to? Well, what do you know?

Other then say Jose Contreres no MLB team has made a massive financial comittment to an already professional latino player, so its not apples to apples because the majority of japanese players that come over and get the tranlator are already established Japanese Baseball stars, are being paid huge sums of money (probably are already rich by american standards), and are earmarked to the majors either already or very shortly. They also have like 50 japanese media people and 1000 japanese tourists at every game, but no other japanese in the clubhouse.

As to the issue at hand...I'd be curious as to how many of those Japanese players coming over, who are already pros, have a translator as part of thier contract negotiations.

[smegma]

Thats Ozzie's son show your talkign about right. I listen to, and then dip in and out of english enough for me to understand it.

The PED issue, Id take steriods easily, and change my age if if were in their shoes.

Yeah, Ozzie Jr's show. I liked it, but I hate his voice.

The age issue is another one that seems to be disparate, if not downright discriminatory, between white and Latino players. So many of the guys coming out of South and Central America lie about their age because they know there's a limit to how old you can be and still be considered a viable prospect. Whereas here in the US, you can go to college and be 22 or 23 and you are on equal footing to those that go straight to the minors from high school. If there's no problems with assimilating Latin players to the MLB, then why have the age limit in place (which may not be written, but it's understood that you can't be a 23 year old Dominican MLB prospect). The are rare exceptions, like Contreras, but there aren't sufficient examples to prove the rule untrue.

I think these issues still need attention and I think that's what is key to Ozzie's rant.

[naz]

As to the issue at hand...I'd be curious as to how many of those Japanese players coming over, who are already pros, have a translator as part of thier contract negotiations.

According to the NYT article I linked to above, it happens "often".

[Caliban]

According to the NYT article I linked to above, it happens "often".

It doesnt even need to be contractual. If you are committing 48 million dollars to Fukudome, you are gonna put an extra million into being able to communicate with him. Im guessing a million for a translator over 4 years (travel included).

There are probably 5 bilingual (eng-spanish) on a given roster and at least one coach. I think language is the least difficult piece of assimilation for the latino players. They need to assimilate to a first world culture often with a large sum of money.

[Fez]

So ESPN has an article about Dunn being put on waivers. Frankly I hope the Nats can figure out a way to resign him, but other than that I have nothing to say about Dunn. I am more curious with the sentence that the article ended with:

In August, teams attempt to pass most or all of their players through waivers, so the fact that Dunn was placed on waivers is not unusual.

I was wondering, why? If a team has no interest in trading a player why would a team care if he passes through waivers? I am sure there is some complicated financial reason why, but I don't know what it is.

[Mack Kilimaro]

I was wondering, why? If a team has no interest in trading a player why would a team care if he passes through waivers? I am sure there is some complicated financial reason why, but I don't know what it is.

As far as I can tell, they pretty much just do it for the lulz. It's also kind of circular: if you don't try to pass someone through waivers then you don't know who will pass through waivers. Anybody who makes it through waivers can then be traded at will and if it turns out there is a team that gets some sudden need for a player you have then you can make a little deal and get some small potential value. But if you never put a guy through waivers you don't know what your options are for that sort of thing.

Plus, as we saw last year it's also a means by which you can try to dump a contract on a risk-taker/sucker, although that's kind of worked out okay for the White Sox thus far.

[Jaxom 1974]

Because last night's bloodbath didn't push the knife in far enough...

[Caliban]

Because last night's bloodbath didn't push the knife in far enough...

This has nothing on the 2004 cubs.

[Jaxom 1974]

This has nothing on the 2004 cubs.

Oh? Just because 2004 was a train wreck doesn't make this little item from yesterday any less funny.

[Caliban]

Oh? Just because 2004 was a train wreck doesn't make this little item from yesterday any less funny.

Take it easy jaxom. The horrendousness of this Cubs team isnt pissing me off at 2004 levels.

[Jaxom 1974]

Take it easy jaxom. The horrendousness of this Cubs team isnt pissing me off at 2004 levels.

Ah. You're less pissed than '04. Got it.

I'm also not angry, I'm just starting to reach the point where I'm laughing while the knife goes in...

[awesome possum]

I'm only disappointed in myself for allowing the team I wanted to give up on in May to keep pulling me back in with brief, albeit brilliant, displays of potential.