U.S. Politics, 5

[Bellis]

Islam is not an institution. It's a range of beliefs shared to various extents and interpreted a myriad of ways by a billion and a half people.

There's a really nice recent article in the NYTimes that highlights this point, with respect to Lower Manhattan.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/14/nyregion/14mosque.html?scp=1&sq=manhattan%20mosque&st=cse

The article describes two existing mosques in the vicinity of Ground Zero. One has been there for 4 decades, is traditional, and frequented mostly by Asian immigrant men. The other has been there for 3 decade, follows a Sufi tradition, has a diverse congraegation, and a female Imam.

I suspect Rauf's community center will fall somewhere in between. But this is the reality of Islam in America and NYC in particular.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Islam is not an institution. It's a range of beliefs shared to various extents and interpreted a myriad of ways by a billion and a half people.

Fair enough. Then lets say a great many of those billion and a half people haven't figured out how to reconcile their religious beliefs with secular concepts of religious freedom and basic human rights.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

FLOW,

You can't judge an entire faith based upon the actions of its kooks.

[Hereward]

Fair enough. Then lets say a great many of those billion and a half people haven't figured out how to reconcile their religious beliefs with secular concepts of religious freedom and basic human rights.

Neither have a great many Orthodox Christians.

*peers at Ser Scot*

[Spring Bass]

Fair enough. Then lets say a great many of those billion and a half people haven't figured out how to reconcile their religious beliefs with secular concepts of religious freedom and basic human rights.

Go back and re-read my post. Those three heavily muslim Democratic countries - Turkey, Bangladesh, and Indonesia - account for 470 million of the world's muslim population. Most of the rest live in poor-ass, third-world dictatorships, so blaming them for being inimical to democracy isn't exactly fair (no one claims that the Chinese, for example, are incapable of reconciling their beliefs with democracy and human rights because China is a dictatorship).

A relatively small* number live in Europe, where they are largely law-abiding citizens and workers. Most of them are non-practicing; only 36% of French muslims described themselves as "observant believers".

* Small by comparison to the populations of the countries they live in. There are around 2 million muslims in the UK, which sounds impressive . . . until you remember that the UK has a population of nearly 60 million people.

[Hereward]

You can add circa 120m Muslims in India to the democratic camp, too.

[Horza]

Fair enough. Then lets say a great many of those billion and a half people haven't figured out how to reconcile their religious beliefs with secular concepts of religious freedom and basic human rights.

Sure. Neither have a great many people in Russia, Uganda, China and this recent flap demonstrates the same could be said of quite a few people in the United States.

My point here is that the divide between people who have reconciled secularism and respect for human rights with their religion and those who haven't is better elucidated by comparison of economic development and education levels, particularly %age of educated women than the religious beliefs per se.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Ah, how hysterically funny that you should ask/accuse me of being intentionally obtuse. The rest of your post is mindless bullshit that, once again, supports nothing but your bigotry. I challenge you to tell me how one can blame the "institution of Islam" for atrocities while simultaneously not engaging in rank bigotry toward it's members?

Don't use the word "institution" then. Folks here talk about "Christianity" and "mormonism" separate from the individuals who practice those religions, as a generalization about the beliefs most commonly accepted among its practitioners, and I was attempting to draw the same type of generalization about islam. If the word "institution" doesn't convey that concept, then it was bad word choice on my part.

But going to your point, there is absolutely nothing inconsistent in pointing out that a great many of the practitioners of islam hold views incompatible with basic freedoms, citing their religion as the justification, but that some others moslems have managed to reconcile that. Just for starters is the tension between civil and sharia law. Which nobody seems to want to discuss....

Then, after you've finished doing your completely irrational, illogical mental gymnastics on that then bring it full circle and apply it to the proposed mosque in lower Manhattan.

I don't recall ever linking this point to the argument over the mosque. This is a separate issue/discussion regarding islam as a whole based on the comments that Commodore made. Some of which I disagree with and think were over the top, but others that I think have some validity. Interestingly, people only focus on the portion of his comments with which they disagree, while avoiding the uncomfortable realities contained in the particular parts of his post I quoted.

Care to wear a Mohammed shirt walking the streets of Islamabad?

[Prince of the North]

Fair enough. Then lets say a great many of those billion and a half people haven't figured out how to reconcile their religious beliefs with secular concepts of religious freedom and basic human rights.

While your use of "great many" above is certainly debatable I agree there are, at least, some Muslims who haven't figured out how to reconcile their religious beliefs with secular concepts of religious freedom and basic human rights. Of course, that also means that, at least, some have. So, with the acknowledgement that not all members of Islam were responsible for the attacks of 9/11 should these particular Muslims be permitted to build a community center near Ground Zero containing a memorial to 9/11 and a mosque, among other things? Are they innocent until proven guilty or must they prove themselves innocent of something that they didn't do?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Hereward,

Isn't that the truth. I'm arguing with fellow parishoners from my parish on my facebook page right now. The best they can come up with to oppose the Cordoba Center is that "it just doesn't feel right".

[Bellis]

You can add circa 120m Muslims in India to the democratic camp, too.

:love:

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

You can add circa 120m Muslims in India to the democratic camp, too.

Except India isn't a majority moslem country, is it? That version of India is now called Pakistan, and you can try the Mohammed t-shirt experiment in Islamabad if you wish as well.

[Horza]

Except India isn't a majority moslem country, is it? That version of India is now called Pakistan, and you can try the Mohammed t-shirt experiment in Islamabad if you wish as well.

? You are hurting my head with bad history.

[Maithanet]

Go back and re-read my post. Those three heavily muslim Democratic countries - Turkey, Bangladesh, and Indonesia - account for 470 million of the world's muslim population. Most of the rest live in poor-ass, third-world dictatorships, so blaming them for being inimical to democracy isn't exactly fair (no one claims that the Chinese, for example, are incapable of reconciling their beliefs with democracy and human rights because China is a dictatorship).

Not to derail this charmingly circular argument about Muslims, Christians and bigotry, but people have actually claimed that Chinese culture is not compatible with (or at least not favorable towards) democracy. It mostly had to do with the same issues as those brought up for Muslim culture, namely because attitudes towards civil responsibility, authority and human rights are different, the civic environment is less favorable towards functioning democracy.

I didn't find these arguments compelling, but they are certainly out there - I remember reading several in Political Science class.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Hereward,

Isn't that the truth. I'm arguing with fellow parishoners from my parish on my facebook page right now. The best they can come up with to oppose the Cordoba Center is that "it just doesn't feel right".

Scot, in the other thread, you said you found Fred Phelps "objectionable", but wouldn't try to silence him. Why is he "objectionable" if all he is doing is hurting people's feelings?

And while I understand that you wouldn't want to silence him -- just as I don't want the government to force this mosque to move -- would you nevertheless urge him not to conduct his protests at those locations? Or do you think even that would be improper?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

FLOW,

Doesn't India have the largest Muslim population in the world after Indonisia?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

FLOW,

I'd ask him, politely, to move when he refuses I'll drop it. It's his right to be a homophobic asshat.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Not to derail this charmingly circular argument about Muslims, Christians and bigotry, but people have actually claimed that Chinese culture is not compatible with (or at least not favorable towards) democracy. It mostly had to do with the same issues as those brought up for Muslim culture, namely because attitudes towards civil responsibility, authority and human rights are different, the civic environment is less favorable towards functioning democracy.

I didn't find these arguments compelling, but they are certainly out there - I remember reading several in Political Science class.

I want to be clear about my point. Where I apparently differ from Commodore is that I don't think that islam is inherently incompatible with democracy. Christianity adjusted over time to religious freedom, and I think islam can as well. People are people. But if you look at how islam is practiced worldwide right now, especially in majority moslem nations, it is apparent that it hasn't yet reached that point. It's still got too high a percentage of whacked out freaks who suicide bomb their co-religionists for not being sufficiently devout. I would hope that a tipping point will be reached where a more tolerant majority will get effective control over the nutbags so they're not a danger to the rest of us.

[Bellis]

FLOW,

Doesn't India have the largest Muslim population in the world after Indonisia?

Wiki has Indonesia at 203 mil, followed remarkably closely by Pakistan at 174 mil, India by 161 mil and Bangladesh at 145 mil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Muslim_population

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

FLOW,

I'd ask him, politely, to move when he refuses I'll drop it. It's his right to be a homophobic asshat.

And I see nothing wrong with harassing the shit out of the guy, calling him the scumbag that he is, and doing everything legal to dissuade him from doing that. So that may be where we differ.

Doesn't India have the largest Muslim population in the world after Indonisia?

See my point above about Pakistan. Anyway, isn't there just a touch of religious violence in India?