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U.S. Politics, 5


TerraPrime

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FLOW,

The problem with your comparison between Fred Phelp's conduct and the Cordoba Centre is that Fred Phelps and his ilk are committing the objectionable conduct themselves, whereas the people who want to set up the Cordoba Centre have done nothing wrong. They have committed no objectionable acts. They simply happen to share a religion with a few terrorists have claim to have acted in said religion's name.

I agree with you that the comparison isn't valid in terms of the justification for the emotional reaction. However, Scot made a specific point that hurting people's feelings or emotions is not a valid reason to ask someone to refrain from a given action. And in addressing that point, Phelps works. Whether or not the particular emotions or feelings are justified is a separate question. Scot's argument just struck me as odd, so I wanted to address it separately.

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Turkey, Bangladesh, and Indonesia. I'm just going to keep repeating those until you acknowledge them, FLOW.

Would anyone else like to join in, and see if we can break through FLOW's Wall of Ignorance?

They do, and not just in the three democracies I mentioned above. Christians live openly in Malaysia, Egypt, Lebanon, and Iran.

Do they live openly in safety, without legitimate fear of persecution and physical attack? Are they free to proselytize, travel, dress, and practice their religion? Do they have full freedom of speech? I think we might have different standards for tolerance.

Take Turkey, which has rightly been held up as the best example of a secular moslem state. Any idea how may Catholic priests there are in Turkey? Any idea how many of them have been murdered? A prominent Bishop advocating for greater Christian rights was recently murdered by an assailant shouting "allahu akhbar".

Or Iran:

Due to the socio-economic and political pressures in the years following the Iranian Revolution, periods of outright persecution and times of more latent discrimination, many Iranian Christians, both as part of the general exodus of Iranians and as response to the specific pressures, have emigrated, mostly to the USA, Canada and Western Europe. In 2000, about 0.4% of Iran's population were Christians. In 1975, Christians numbered about 1.5% of the total population. Statistically, a much larger percentage of non-Muslims have emigrated out of Iran.[citation needed]

While the government guarantees the recognised Christian minorities a number of rights (production and sale of non-halal foods),[citation needed] guaranteed representation in parliament, special family law etc.,[citation needed] government intrusion, expropriation of property, forced closure and persecution, particularly in the initial years after the Iranian Revolution, have all been documented. According to the Barnabas Fund, 'the regime rules through fear, and they want Christians to be afraid'. Most prominent has been the death of Haik Hovsepian Mehr, bishop of the Jamiat-e Rabbani, in 1994. Recently the continuing imprisonment of Hamid Pourmand,[7] [8] a lay pastor of Jammiat-e Rabbani, and the murder of Ghorban Tourani,[9] [10] the pastor of an independent evangelical church have created international concern.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Iran

Yeah, its wikipedia, but I somehow think it's probably pretty close to the mark. Those were the only two on your list I checked out of six, so my "wall of ignorance" may still be present to some degree. On the other hand, you're batting 0-2 right now, so that's not good either.

Just curious as to why nobody responds to the "t-shirt challenge" as a measure of tolerance.

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DG,

Dalthor and Bronn Stone have weighed-in on my FB discussion. Dalthor pointed out that St. Nicholas, the Orthodox Church people are trotting out as a Red Herring can rebuild whenever they like, on their own dime.

Nice tagteam guys!

Did that shut them up, or did they just move the goalpost too? lol

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:blink:

Omg, isn't that what this whole not-a-mosque thread about? It's amazing that one could make that statement with a straight face while vocalizing the most odious expressions against the right for Muslims in Manhattan to practice their faith.

Lol, surely there's an irony emoticon for this board?

Hopefully the US will not follow the template of India with respect to the Babri Masjid dispute, where a mosque was built on purpotedly real 'hallow ground', Hindu extremists broke it down, riots ensued, and me and millions of others in Bombay were stuck in our homes for a month while people hacked each other to death in the streets outside. Try not to go down that road, mmkay US?

Different people will take different messages from that kerfuffle, but the disputes are quite similar. The message I took is that ramping up passions over what I consider trifling matters have scary unintended consequences.

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FLOW,

Do they live openly in safety, without legitimate fear of persecution and physical attack? Are they free to proselytize, travel, dress, and practice their religion? Do they have full freedom of speech?

In Turkey, Bangladesh, Lebanon and Indonesia? I'm pretty sure they do. The likes of Eqypt and Iran are repressive regimes who restrict their citizens' freedom in general, so it's not like they are singling out Christians.

Take Turkey, which has rightly been held up as the best example of a secular moslem state. Any idea how may Catholic priests there are in Turkey? Any idea how many of them have been murdered? A prominent Bishop advocating for greater Christian rights was recently murdered by an assailant shouting "allahu akhbar".

Most Christians living in Turkey tend to be Orthodox, so the demand for Catholic priests is probably limited.

As for the murder, abortion doctors in the U.S. occasionally get assailed and/or murdered by Christian fundamentalists, yet I doubt you'd cite that as an indictment of Christianity.

Just curious as to why nobody responds to the "t-shirt challenge" as a measure of tolerance.

Well, Bellis already responded to that, you just ignored it:

Depends on the T-shirt. Depends on where in Islamabad. There's a long Shia Islam tradition of depicting the prophet actually.

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Do they live openly in safety, without legitimate fear of persecution and physical attack? Are they free to proselytize, travel, dress, and practice their religion? Do they have full freedom of speech? I think we might have different standards for tolerance.

For the most part, yes, although openly proselyting can be a sticky issue in countries that are almost entirely muslim.

I notice that you're not disputing the "democracy" part. Is that a concession?

Any idea how may Catholic priests there are in Turkey? Any idea how many of them have been murdered? A prominent Bishop advocating for greater Christian rights was recently murdered by an assailant shouting "allahu akhbar".

There's some largely low-level, unofficial prejudice against Christians (who are a tiny minority). Of course, I could point out that there's a great deal of unofficial prejudice against muslims in the US, so it's not like this is a "muslim" thing.

Or Iran:

Which I never claimed was a democracy, just that it largely does allow Christians to openly practice their religion (although not proselyte it, and there's a big glaring issue with the Bahai being persecuted).

On the other hand, you're batting 0-2 right now, so that's not good either.

A single incident of religiously-motivated murder, and a theocratic dictatorship? Nice try.

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For some laughs and giggles ........... the top 10 right-wing conspiracies in the US:

1. Chemtrails

In the world of Patriot antigovernment paranoia, New World Order forces attempt to manipulate and control the unwitting population from every conceivable source and direction -- from the images on your television screen to the very water that comes out of your kitchen tap. In recent years, the New World Order has been meddling most nefariously from above, high among the clouds.

2. Martial Law

If Patriot groups fear anything more than the water vapor in the sky, it is the imminent imposition of martial law. A longstanding and central plank of the Patriot catechism is the belief that one day -- very soon! -- federal forces, in league with the states, will suspend constitutional government and institute a police state.

3. FEMA Concentration Camps

a running theme expressed by Patriots was a fear that "urban gangs," directed by Washington and possibly acting in concert with U.N. and foreign troops, would sweep in from the coasts, confiscate their guns, and round them up. This home-invasion force would hold down the streets during the imposition of martial law, then send the members of Patriot militias to internment camps run by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), which most Patriot groups consider to be "the executive arm of the coming police state."

4. Foreign Troops on U.S. Soil

While "urban gangs" are considered a leading candidate to enforce a New World Order (NWO) lockdown, they are not the only threatening force clouding the Patriot mind. There is also a belief on the radical right that treasonous government officials are colluding with other governments to suppress Americans with the use of foreign troops. Patriots believe this foreign assistance will be necessary due to the patriotism of America's own troops.

5. 'Door-to-Door' Gun Confiscations

One of the defining features of Patriot/militia subculture is an obsession with firearms. Patriot groups stockpile them, train using them, and, perhaps most of all, worry about losing them. Any attempt to restrain their gun rights is viewed as the thin-edge-wedge of a New World Order crackdown. Patriots believe it inevitable that NWO forces in black masks and jackboots -- and possibly UN blue helmets -- will one day be sent door to door to take away their weapons by force.

6. 9/11 as Government Plot

The Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks on New York City and Washington, D.C., were seen by both the far left and far right as fitting the bill for an intentional "crisis trigger." In the weeks and months after the attacks, a subculture of "9/11 Truthism" emerged in which the attacks were seen as anything but a simple case of well-trained Al Qaeda operatives flying planes into landmark buildings. Instead, "truthers" argued that the World Trade Center buildings were destroyed by controlled demolitions, that a missile brought down United Airlines 93, and that a missile -- and not an airliner at all -- struck the Pentagon.

7. Population Control

For the conspiracy-minded, there is no such thing as an accidental tragedy or historical caprice. Each epidemic, mass industrial poisoning and medical advance (vaccinations, in particular) is just another highly suspicious example of the latest technologies being employed to further the agenda of hidden New World Order forces.

When the fluoridation of the U.S. water supply began in the middle of the last century, proto-Patriot groups screamed of a poisonous plot by communists in high places.

8. HAARP

This is the "Death Star" of the Patriot conspiracy galaxy, around which so many other conspiracies orbit and often intersect.

According to the U.S. government, the High-frequency Active Auroral Research Program is a joint scientific research project of the Air Force and Navy, based in Gakona, Ala., whose stated purpose is "studying the properties and behavior of the ionosphere, with particular emphasis on being able to understand and use it to enhance communications and surveillance systems for both civilian and defense purposes."

Few true-blue Patriots believe that -- and they aren't alone in their skepticism. Earlier this year, former Minnesota governor and tele-conspiracist Jesse Ventura visited the HAARP site for his TV show in an attempt to probe the official claims and find out "what's really going on." For those enthralled to a Patriot view of the world, the government's description of HAARP only scratches the surface. To the conspiracy-minded, HAARP is a government program tasked with creating secret directed-energy weapons, instruments for weather and mind control, and even potent new methods to cause earthquakes. Predictably, after January's devastating earthquake in Haiti, some Patriot sites noted that the neighboring Dominican Republic was undamaged, leading them to speculate that the U.S. government was responsible and had targeted Haiti alone

9. The Federal Reserve Conspiracy

It wasn't long after its creation under Woodrow Wilson that the Federal Reserve System became a central fixture in the world of right-wing conspiracy. It was seen, rightly, as introducing European-style central banking into the United States. It was also seen, this time wrongly, as the latest form of spreading Jewish and banker control over every aspect of American life. No one did more to promote anti-Fed hysteria in the early years than automobile magnate Henry Ford, who in the 1920s penned a multi-volume, anti-Semitic conspiracy opus called The International Jew, in which the Fed plays a starring role.

10. The North American Union

Since the passage of NAFTA in 1993, fears of economic dislocation and loss of sovereignty have animated both sides of the political spectrum. On the left, these fears are centered on the growth of transnational corporate power at the expense of U.S. labor and national policy. In some circles on the right, the trade bill is seen as the beginning of the so-called "North American Union" (NAU), the goal of a secret plan to merge the United States with Mexico and Canada and, in the process, eliminate sovereign government for each country. It is also a dominant conspiracy theory animating the hard-line anti-immigration movement, which overlaps heavily with Patriot territory.

http://www.alternet.org/news/147851/top_10_right-wing_conspiracy_theories?page=entire

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As for the murder, abortion doctors in the U.S. occasionally get assailed and/or murdered by Christian fundamentalists, yet I doubt you'd cite that as an indictment of Christianity.

From what I've read, there were about 60 priests in Turkey. 4-5 have been killed. I think that's a bit above the abortion bombing rate. Anyway, here's an article from Der Speigel about the problems in Turkey. There's pluses and minuses, which is why I didn't selectively excerpt. But I'd agree Turkey is the best example, which is why I am NOT saying there's no hope for coexistence.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,411043,00.html

Well, Bellis already responded to that, you just ignored it:

Okay, it apparently depends on the part of the city in which you happen to be walking. Is that really okay? And try it in a Sunni state, or where a Jesus t-shirt. Or are you claiming that such expressions are accepted as peacefully in moslem majority nations as they are here?

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Okay, it apparently depends on the part of the city in which you happen to be walking. Is that really okay?

Of course it's not okay, but not too long ago you would have been at risk for walking in the wrong part of town in the US wearing a hammer & sickle T-shirt.

Or being black.

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As to the superiority of Christianity as a tolerant religion... Nothing says tolerance like burning a pile of Korans. Surely Newt Gingrich could draw some Nazi comparisons there, if he weren't a sociopathic power-humping whoremonkey.

I read that as "burn a pile of Koreans"

Which would, admittedly, have been slightly worse.

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FLOW,

From what I've read, there were about 60 priests in Turkey. 4-5 have been killed. I think that's a bit above the abortion bombing rate.

So now you're just arguing proportionality? :shocked:

The fact is that this kind of regretable violence happens both in Muslim Turkey and the Christian U.S.

Okay, it apparently depends on the part of the city in which you happen to be walking. Is that really okay?

I'm sure there's parts of the U.S. where walking down the street with a pro-choice t-shirt would severely compromise your safety as well, so what exactly is your point?

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cyrano,

Different people will take different messages from that kerfuffle, but the disputes are quite similar. The message I took is that ramping up passions over what I consider trifling matters have scary unintended consequences.

Not really sure who you're suggesting might be doing the "ramping up," or what are supposed to be the legal remedies to prevent that happening.

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The Brits partitioned the dominion of India into India and Pakistan, based largely on the religious divide. So when I was discussing moslem majority nations and someone mentioned India, I referred to Pakistan part as Moslem India for that reason. Still not going to wear that Mohammed t-shirt in Islamabad either way.

And Pakistan split to Pakistan and Bangladesh, which as has been repeatedly said is working democracy.

Do they live openly in safety, without legitimate fear of persecution and physical attack? Are they free to proselytize, travel, dress, and practice their religion? Do they have full freedom of speech? I think we might have different standards for tolerance.

Take Turkey, which has rightly been held up as the best example of a secular moslem state. Any idea how may Catholic priests there are in Turkey? Any idea how many of them have been murdered? A prominent Bishop advocating for greater Christian rights was recently murdered by an assailant shouting "allahu akhbar".

Why exactly should there be many catholic priests on an area where most christians have historically been eastern orthodox?

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