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The "Ground Zero Mosque"


Guest Raidne

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Guest Raidne

For me, this cartoon pretty much says it all.

ETA: I had to link this one too.

Here's a basic outline of the story, as reported in Al Jazeera. Unlike the other news outlets, it is remarkably free of editorializing.

The mosque is being developed by a group called the Cordoba Initiative.

The group says on its website that its goal is to foster a better relationship between the Muslim world and the West, "steering the world back to the course of mutual recognition and respect and away from heightened tensions".

Well, that's kind of sad, isn't it?

I tried to track down the best anti-mosque argument I could find, and I think it's probably this one:

The lessons of an earlier and different controversy echo in this one. In 1993, Pope John Paul II asked 14 Carmelite Nuns to move their convent from just outside the Auschwitz death camp. The establishment of the convent near Auschwitz had stirred dismay among Jewish groups and survivors who felt that the location was an affront and a terrible disservice to the memory of millions of Jews who died at the hands of the Nazis in the Holocaust.

Just as we thought then that well-meaning efforts by Carmelite nuns to build a Catholic structure were insensitive and counterproductive to reconciliation, so too we believe it will be with building a mosque so close to Ground Zero.

Of course, in that case the difference is that it was the Pope who asked the nuns to move.

In case anyone is curious, here is the FAQ on the website of the Cordoba Center.

Why are you building a mosque at Ground zero?

The community center is not located at Ground Zero.

It will be a multi-floor community center open to all New Yorkers, much like a YMCA or Jewish Community Center (JCC) with a designated prayer space (mosque) in one area to serve the needs of the large existing community of American Muslims in the neighborhood.

The community center will provide a place where individuals, regardless of their culture or background, will find a place of learning, arts and culture, and, most importantly, a community center guided by the universal values of all religions in their truest form – peace, compassion, generosity, and respect for all.

Why did you choose this site so close to Ground Zero?

We were always close to the World Trade Center. Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has been the Imam of a mosque twelve blocks from the Twin Towers for the last 27 years.

I also think this section is worth posting:

What about the 9/11 families? Don’t you see their pain?

Like all New Yorkers and Americans we were too devastated by 9/11. We share and respect the incredible pain and loss suffered by the victims of 9/11. We fully recognize their legitimate concerns and sensitivity to the community center. It shames us that extremists who profess to be Muslim perpetrated murder on such a horrific scale for political and financial gain in the name of Islam.

We look forward to actively engaging with leaders of the victims of 9/11 to respond to their concerns and obtain their support for our efforts.

To this I would add, and what about the Muslim victims of 9/11, like Khalid Shahid, who worked at Cantor Fitzgerald, or Rahma Salie, an American Airlines passenger? I guess their families can just get bent?

Honestly, I just don't understand this argument at all and I think it's, frankly, embarassing.

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Honestly, I just don't understand this argument at all

There is really no argument, just a bunch of rightwing bigots' self-perpetuated and ever-shifting noise and fury that, when confronted with rationality and facts, ended up signifying nothing substantive.

On the other hand, I'm glad that the Repubs and teabaggers are seizing on this particular issue to push forward to the upcoming midterm elections.

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How about we eliminate all men's bathrooms from the buildings at Ground Zero because the 9/11 hijackers were men. Hell, let's just ban all men from the place. It could become, like, the biggest Victoria's Secret ever.

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Guest Raidne

You have to at least minimally think that Islam is responsible for bombing the World Trade Center though, right? I guess I should have included Palin and Gingrich's comments:

Earlier Sunday afternoon, Palin tweeted, "Ground Zero Mosque supporters: doesn't it stab you in the heart, as it does ours throughout the heartland? Peaceful Muslims, pls refudiate."

(But she likely meant "repudiate.")

He he.

And Gingrich....

"There should be no mosque near Ground Zero in New York so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia."

Well, maybe there shouldn't be any churches in Saudi Arabia as long as there are no Buddhist temples in Vatican City!!! So there.

ETA: Naz, I refer you to the second linked cartoon, which I think you will enjoy.

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ETA: Naz, I refer you to the second linked cartoon, which I think you will enjoy.

Thunder stolen yet again. *sigh* You know what's funny? I was actually going to say YMCA instead of men's bathrooms, but I didn't want to... you know... bring religion into it.

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The Mosque was yesterdays news. A new bigger threat has been found! People are selling Halal right next to the sacred site of Ground Zero! How dare these muslims, or people that like mid-east food, sell that type of food to the constitution workers on that very site!

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2010/08/breaking_halal_food_carts_cite.html

I'd have more respect for the people opposing that mosque if they weren't also opposing just about every other Mosque being built or expanded in America.

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There is really no argument, just a bunch of rightwing bigots' self-perpetuated and ever-shifting noise and fury that, when confronted with rationality and facts, ended up signifying nothing substantive.

On the other hand, I'm glad that the Repubs and teabaggers are seizing on this particular issue to push forward to the upcoming midterm elections.

You're being rather dismissive if you think it's "just a bunch of right wing bigots." Opposition is across the board. A majority of liberals, conservatives, whites, blacks, catholics, jews, the educated, uneducated, etc, disagree with building the mosque.

A new survey released Thursday says 61 percent of New York state residents oppose the location for the Cordoba House, an Islamic community center and mosque to be built in Lower Manhattan, just two blocks away from Ground Zero. The poll results came just two days after the City of New York gave builders the go-ahead for center’s development.

...

According to the poll’s results, opposition to the Islamic center is greatest among those who live in the suburbs and Upstate New York, and among those who identify as conservative (85 percent of conservatives surveyed said they were against the center, whereas only 11 percent supported it). However, a majority of liberals (52 percent) and moderates (55 percent) are also opposed to the building’s location according to the survey, showing that opposition to the Cordoba House crosses ideological lines.

Opponents tend to be more religious, with 73 percent of Catholics, 75 percent of Jews, and 65 percent of Protestants opposing the project. In contrast, support for the center’s location registers the highest among those with no religious affiliation at 47 percent. The poll’s findings do not disclose how self-identified Muslims feel about the issue.

Interestingly, education levels seem to make no difference in voting patterns. Sixty two percent of those reporting an education level of “less than college” registered in opposition to the Cordoba House’s location, as did 62 percent of those reporting “college” level educational attainment.

As for ethnic makeup, a majority of whites (69 percent), blacks (52 percent) and Latinos (62 percent) said they oppose the building’s location. Support for the proposal is highest among blacks at 38 percent, with Latinos coming in second at 26 percent and whites at 19 percent.

http://dailycaller.com/2010/08/09/poll-shows-opposition-to-cordoba-house-crosses-religious-ethnic-and-ideological-lines/

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Interesting bit from the Halal food cart article:

Much of the debate over the Islamic center quite properly focuses on Constitutional rights, religious freedom and so on. But what's less remarked on, as this reader points out, is that Muslims are already part of the fabric of New York City, particularly in lower Manhattan. Their activities are interwoven with the city's economy. Non-Muslims of all religions and nationalities rely on the services they provide, whether they are running Halal carts or driving taxis.

....or, you know, working as high-level investment bankers on Wall St.

I don't think the guy was trying to be intentionally condescending, but, dude... couldn't you have picked some other ways that Muslims provide a 'service' to society besides choosing the two most obvious stereotypes?

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Guest Raidne

Well, I don't know about right-wing, but I guess the survey has found that 61% of New Yorkers are bigots.

At any rate, the Siena Research Institute (who conducted the "new study") also found that 64% of New Yorkers thought the developers had a Constitutional Right to build the mosque.

So apparently it's the sensitivity argument that is persuasive to people. I'd personally still like to see some Implicit Association Test (IAT) scores for these people. The sensitivity argument doesn't make sense. What on earth could be more appropriate than a Muslim community center that vehemently opposes terrorism and preaches the importance of a pluralistic society? Build it on ground zero as far as I'm concerned - you couldn't find anything more appropriate that strikes a better note.

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The thing that gets me about this is the casual way politicians think they can manipulate American Muslims--the whole "Peaceful Muslims, pls refudiate (sic)" schtick. Okay, I know Palin is dumb as a brick, but she's not the only one saying these sorts of things--don't they realize that it's more important to keep American Muslims from radicalizing than to enlist them in frivolous fights over whether some mosque is too close to Ground Zero? The mix of threat ("if you're a good, peaceful Muslim you'll do as we say") and insensitivity ("I have no idea what your community thinks about anything, and I don't care about the discrimination you've suffered since 9/11, you need to turn on your fellow Muslims immediately and oppose this project that right-wing Christians find offensive") in these sorts of statements is just sickening.

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Tempra,

Unless you hold all Muslims responsible for 9/11 there is no rational basis for opposing the Cordoba Center. There have been Mosques in the neighborhood for years.

That may be, but the majority of New Yorkers (and most likely Americans) disapprove of the project. This controversy is hardly limited to right wing bigots. And it is totally understandable, even if it is not reasonable.

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You're being rather dismissive if you think it's "just a bunch of right wing bigots." Opposition is across the board. A majority of liberals, conservatives, whites, blacks, catholics, jews, the educated, uneducated, etc, disagree with building the mosque.

http://dailycaller.com/2010/08/09/poll-shows-opposition-to-cordoba-house-crosses-religious-ethnic-and-ideological-lines/

The self-perpetuating and ever-shifting goalpost sure fit the MO of rightwing bigots to a T here, I have to say.

The project was publicly proposed for years, with active religious services conducted onsite for sometimes now .......... and nobody gives it much thought until the rightwing pundits started to poison the well with their bigotry and useful idiots like flow et al began to vomit the hatred everywhere.

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What on earth could be more appropriate than a Muslim community center that vehemently opposes terrorism and preaches the importance of a pluralistic society? Build it on ground zero as far as I'm concerned - you couldn't find anything more appropriate that strikes a better note.

Tell me, do you think al-Qaida & Co. would be for or against what you propose? The Cordoba Initiative may vehemently oppose terrorism and their actions may be non-violent, but they still inspire anger and hatred. The statement you quoted from their website:

The group says on its website that its goal is to foster a better relationship between the Muslim world and the West, "steering the world back to the course of mutual recognition and respect and away from heightened tensions".

is hilariously ironic given what they have wrought. As I said in the other thread, I can think of no means except violence to heighten tension more than they have done.

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Well, if they disapprove so much then they can attend a different mosque and not use any of the other amenities at the community center, can't they? I mean, they're acting as if the Cordoba project is demanding taxpayer funds or something.

Funding of the project is a controversy unto itself, particularly after Rauf lied about where the money would come from.

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Based on vauge recollection of having heard this someplace, the Cordoba House thing is a Sufi project, so its entirely possible Al Qaeda despise them, ideologically speaking. (politically, of course, If Bin Laden comes out with a tape in support tommorow, that probably just deepens the schisms and marginalizes and disappoints moderates, so thats great.)

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Tell me, do you think al-Qaida & Co. would be for or against what you propose? The Cordoba Initiative may vehemently oppose terrorism and their actions may be non-violent, but they still inspire anger and hatred. The statement you quoted from their website:

Tell me Altherion, do you think we should get rid of our fundamental rights and liberty to appease Al-Queda or other nutbags' perceived injury to their sensitivity?

is hilariously ironic given what they have wrought. As I said in the other thread, I can think of no means except violence to heighten tension more than they have done.

What a load of bullshit. You consistently put the blame on the people who proposed the site, yet completely ignoring the will and actions of the rightwing bigots who were instrumental in whipping up the flame of hatred.

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This thing has been talked about endlessly from every possible angle but I'd like some things to be translated to terms I can understand.

How distant is 2 blocks (between this building and G0 site) is in meters?

And would this building be visible from the completed structure at G0 (whenever that happens) - would it tower over G0 site and darken the sky above it or be a blip on the horizon? How tall is each building supposed to be anyway (is there a pissing contest who'll build the taller building)?

This mosque would be built in a building that was destroyed by airplane debris during 9/11. That's the source of the claim it's on G0 site. Were other buildings damaged during the attack also consecrated in the publics mind or is this a special case?

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