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The "Ground Zero Mosque"


Guest Raidne

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This thing has been talked about endlessly from every possible angle but I'd like someone to translate to me what does (2 blocks away from G0) mean in meters. And would this building be visible from the completed structure at G0 (whenever that happens) - would it tower over G0 site and darken the sky above it or be a blip on the horizon.

About 150 meters away. I don't think it will be visible from ground zero.

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That may be, but the majority of New Yorkers (and most likely Americans) disapprove of the project. This controversy is hardly limited to right wing bigots. And it is totally understandable, even if it is not reasonable.

First, if you're going to rely on a poll so heavily, do make sure you are not misrepresenting it. I don't know if it's because you haven't read this poll properly (warning: PDF), but you are guilty of misrepresenting it. The statistic you're quoting only comes about when the pollsters pressed respondents into a yes/no on whether the building should be sited on its current spot. Those who, for example, thought both sides had a point (38%, a group as large as those opposed) were forced into saying 'yes' or 'no', which calls the headline statistic into question.

ETA - forgot to add: so far as I can tell the survey was conducted well after the furore erupted, and as I say about half of respondents admitted they knew very little about the issue. So it's impossible to view this response as independent of the public arguments, as being the 'true' opinion of New Yorkers as opposed to their reaction to the media hubbub. As such it's near-useless except as an interesting study in how people form opinions based on what the news media tell them.

Furthermore, if the questions in the full survey were asked in the order they appear there - and I see no reason to think otherwise - the respondents were only asked about the Cordoba centre after lengthy and detailed questioning on a series of immigration and security issues, questions which frankly to my eye appear to be 'priming' for a negative response on Cordoba. I am not at all convinced that this survey of 600 people - which admits to a margin of error of 4%, by the way, but which probably has a much larger margin realistically - bears the weight you want to place on it.

Finally, to compare people who're asked about something they mostly admit to not knowing much about, and then are forced into saying 'yes' or 'no' on, to people who are actively campaigning against it - as you are doing - is simply daft. Who could possibly think that's a valid comparison? It's perfectly possible that most respondents in this survey are not bigots, but those who are actively campaigning against the building are. So even to the extent the poll is reliable and accurate, it doesn't serve the argument you want it to serve.

In short, if this is the best argument you've got, you'll have to find something better.

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Tell me Altherion, do you think we should get rid of our fundamental rights and liberty to appease Al-Queda or other nutbags' perceived injury to their sensitivity?

No. I don't think things have gone far enough for limiting freedom of religion to be necessary at this time. However, I see nothing wrong with politely asking the Cordoba Initiative to build their center somewhere else, in a place that doesn't antagonize 70% of the population.

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Funding of the project is a controversy unto itself, particularly after Rauf lied about where the money would come from.

That's a really meaningless statement, given that the money hasn't been raised yet. Fucking tempest in a teapot.

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No. I don't think things have gone far enough for limiting freedom of religion to be necessary at this time. However, I see nothing wrong with politely asking the Cordoba Initiative to build their center somewhere else, in a place that doesn't antagonize 70% of the population.

The demand to move the project is neither polite nor sensible. Furthermore, you don't think that such demand itself is infringing/limiting the freedom of religion of Muslims in Manhattan?

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Guest Raidne

Well, if they disapprove so much then they can attend a different mosque and not use any of the other amenities at the community center, can't they? I mean, they're acting as if the Cordoba project is demanding taxpayer funds or something.

Apparently, there was a petition to get the building currently on the site declared a historical landmark so it couldn't be demolished and the mosque, therefore, could not be built. But, the local government declined to do so, and so now it's basically just a public grassroots effort, i.e. Palin and Gingrich's plan to sell more books.

Tell me, do you think al-Qaida & Co. would be for or against what you propose? The Cordoba Initiative may vehemently oppose terrorism and their actions may be non-violent, but they still inspire anger and hatred. The statement you quoted from their website is hilariously ironic...

Yeah, I know. I posted it because I thought it was ironic. But I guess for different reasons?

And yeah, I feel pretty damn comfortable stating that I think Al Qaeda is vehemently against religious tolerance and mutual respect. It doesn't exactly line up with the game plan. I'm pretty sure Al Qaeda is against Muslim sects that preach religious tolerance, period, whether they're on Ground Zero or not. That's exactly why it's such a great thing to put there. Seriously, if I was deliberately choosing things to locate in the neighborhood, that's what I'd pick. I really don't understand the protests. I don't get it.

...given what they have wrought. As I said in the other thread, I can think of no means except violence to heighten tension more than they have done.

See, I'm reading this over and over, and I have no idea WTF you're talking about. You realize their mosque is in this neighborhood already and has been for years, right? Can they keep that one? Or do they need to demolish it to be polite?

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You're being rather dismissive if you think it's "just a bunch of right wing bigots." Opposition is across the board. A majority of liberals, conservatives, whites, blacks, catholics, jews, the educated, uneducated, etc, disagree with building the mosque.

I agree with you, actually. Its a bit more complicated than simple bigotry and I've seen hysterical reactions from both left and right over this project.

In the left corner, I believe that people are making overly broad generalizations about those opposed to the center. My understanding is that most of the people opposed to the mosque are not opposed to the opening of a mosque in the US or even in NYC in general. I think that most people opposed to the center also recognize its legal right to exist there, but would prefer it be located elsewhere. You are allowed to ask that something be moved and to complain about it if you don't like it. Those are two points that are often ignored when discussing the center's opponents because it makes them look a little less than despicable than 'Racist New Yorkers Hate all Muslims, Brown People, and Freedom of Religion. Sports at 11.' I don't think that that is a fair characterization of the majority of opponents at all, and I don't think that anyone (or at least very many) of those opposed would encourage trampling the 1st amendment over this. While that is certainly the case for some of them, I think that there is actually a number of quite reasonable people who are not comfortable with the location and don't deserve the label of 'racist' or 'bigot' because that location makes them upset or uncomfortable.

Then, in the right corner, there is the misrepresentation of what the 'mosque' actually is and where it actually is. When you first hear VICTORY MOSQUE TO BE CONSTRUCTED AT GROUND ZERO, I'll bet most American's had a gut reaction. Mine was, 'What? Fuck that.' And, frankly, it will be viewed that way by some and that is naturally gonna irk people. But then you read a little more about it and it turns out that its several blocks away, its not really a mosque, and the dude in charge of the project is by all accounts the type of moderate and tolerant Muslim that we need to reach out to, not alienate. So there's obviously been some fanning of the flames from the right and, surprise, it's an election year. Loud mouths like Palin, Gingrich, and Limbaugh don't speak for everyone.

As I said in the other thread, I personally don't care. I think it could be a good symbol of how religious freedom in America is real. But at the same time I'd be lying if I came in here and joined in on the echo chamber by claiming that I just can't understand why anyone would be opposed to the project.... because I can understand why it would upset people. At the end of the day, I stand by the first amendment and freedom of religion because those are part of what makes America a great place to live... so I got no problems with them building it. Mosque away. But I'm not going to lash out at people asking them to move it either.

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First, if you're going to rely on a poll so heavily, do make sure you are not misrepresenting it. I don't know if it's because you haven't read this poll properly (warning: PDF), but you are guilty of misrepresenting it. The statistic you're quoting only comes about when the pollsters pressed respondents into a yes/no on whether the building should be sited on its current spot. Those who, for example, thought both sides had a point (38%, a group as large as those opposed) were forced into saying 'yes' or 'no', which calls the headline statistic into question.

Furthermore, if the questions in the full survey were asked in the order they appear there - and I see no reason to think otherwise - the respondents were only asked about the Cordoba centre after lengthy and detailed questioning on a series of immigration and security issues, questions which frankly to my eye appear to be 'priming' for a negative response on Cordoba. I am not at all convinced that this survey of 600 people - which admits to a margin of error of 4%, by the way, but which probably has a much larger margin realistically - bears the weight you want to place on it.

Finally, to compare people who're asked about something they mostly admit to not knowing much about, and then are forced into saying 'yes' or 'no' on, to people who are actively campaigning against it - as you are doing - is simply daft. Who could possibly think that's a valid comparison? It's perfectly possible that most respondents in this survey are not bigots, but those who are actively campaigning against the building are. So even to the extent the poll is reliable and accurate, it doesn't serve the argument you want it to serve.

In short, if this is the best argument you've got, you'll have to find something better.

"According to a new TIME poll, 61% of respondents oppose the construction of the Park51/Cordoba House project, compared with 26% who support it. More than 70% concur with the premise that proceeding with the plan would be an insult to the victims of the attacks on the World Trade Center. Opposition to the project appears to derive largely from the conviction that the proposed site of the project — just two blocks from Ground Zero, in a building that formerly housed a Burlington Coat Factory outlet — is so close to "hallowed ground," as President Obama put it."

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2011799,00.html#ixzz0xMPel44S

"Results from a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll today shows that opposition to the Park51 mosque is not limited to New York City voters — but nationwide.

70 percent of all Americans oppose the plan to build a mosque 600 feet from the Ground Zero / World Trade Center site. While only 29 percent were in favor of the Park51 mosque.

In terms of the breakdown of those polled, opposition crossed all political lines and age demographics.

54 percent of Democrats polled were against the development, while 82 percent of Republicans polled were against it. 70 percent of Independents polled were also against the building of the mosque.

6 in 10 people under the age of 50 oppose the plan."

http://batteryparkcity.com/news/cnn-70-of-all-americans-oppose-park51cordoba-mosque/

"Just 20% of Americans favor the building of an Islamic mosque near the Ground Zero site of the World Trade Center in New York City, according to a new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey.

Fifty-four percent (54%) oppose the planned building of a mosque near where Muslim terrorists brought down the skyscrapers by crashing commercial airliners into them on September 11, 2001. Three thousand people died in the incident and related attacks that day."

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/july_2010/20_favor_mosque_near_ground_zero_54_oppose

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I agree with you, actually. Its a bit more complicated than simple bigotry and I've seen hysterical reactions from both left and right over this project.

In the left corner, I believe that people are making overly broad generalizations about those opposed to the center. My understanding is that most of the people opposed to the mosque are not opposed to the opening of a mosque in the US or even in NYC in general. I think that most people opposed to the center also recognize its legal right to exist there, but would prefer it be located elsewhere. You are allowed to ask that something be moved and to complain about it if you don't like it. Those are two points that are often ignored when discussing the center's opponents because it makes them look a little less than despicable than 'Racist New Yorkers Hate all Muslims, Brown People, and Freedom of Religion. Sports at 11.' I don't think that that is a fair characterization of the majority of opponents at all, and I don't think that anyone (or at least very many) of those opposed would encourage trampling the 1st amendment over this. While that is certainly the case for some of them, I think that there is actually a number of quite reasonable people who are not comfortable with the location and don't deserve the label of 'racist' or 'bigot' because that location makes them upset or uncomfortable.

Then, in the right corner, there is the misrepresentation of what the 'mosque' actually is and where it actually is. When you first hear VICTORY MOSQUE TO BE CONSTRUCTED AT GROUND ZERO, I'll bet most American's had a gut reaction. Mine was, 'What? Fuck that.' And, frankly, it will be viewed that way by some and that is naturally gonna irk people. But then you read a little more about it and it turns out that its several blocks away, its not really a mosque, and the dude in charge of the project is by all accounts the type of moderate and tolerant Muslim that we need to reach out to, not alienate. So there's obviously been some fanning of the flames from the right and, surprise, it's an election year. Loud mouths like Palin, Gingrich, and Limbaugh don't speak for everyone.

As I said in the other thread, I personally don't care. I think it could be a good symbol of how religious freedom in America is real. But at the same time I'd be lying if I came in here and joined in on the echo chamber by claiming that I just can't understand why anyone would be opposed to the project.... because I can understand why it would upset people. At the end of the day, I stand by the first amendment and freedom of religion because those are part of what makes America a great place to live... so I got no problems with them building it. Mosque away. But I'm not going to lash out at people asking them to move it either.

This sums up my thoughts pretty well.

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Guest Raidne

But at the same time I'd be lying if I came in here and joined in on the echo chamber by claiming that I just can't understand why anyone would be opposed to the project.... because I can understand why it would upset people.

Great. Please explain it to me - that was my main purpose in starting the thread. I really don't get it. All I'm hearing from you or anybody else is "upset" and "uncomfortable," but no specifics as to why, or where those feelings come from.

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Tempra,

But holding people responsible for something based upon who they are and not what they've done is the definition of bigotry. That is reardless of how large the group is. They can claim they aren't bigots till the cows come home opposing the Cordoba center because of 9/11 when the Musilms there had nothin to do with 9/11 is bigotry.

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That may be, but the majority of New Yorkers (and most likely Americans) disapprove of the project. This controversy is hardly limited to right wing bigots. And it is totally understandable, even if it is not reasonable.

Uh, is there are reason there is an entirely new thread in which everyone is just restating positions already stated in the prior thread?

Anyway, not only is this controversy not limited to just the "right wing", but in light of the whole "Obama is a moslem thing"...., I thought this article was just too funny.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/02/24/muslim-barack-obama-opinions-contributors_islamic_president.html

"I know it's odd to say this. At first, I thought I was the only Muslim engaging in this folly, and I am reluctant to express it lest right-wing zealots try to use "Muslim" as a smear and cite my theory as proof of an Islamic traitor in the White House or some such nonsense. But, since Election Day, I have been part of more and more conversations with Muslims in which it was either offhandedly agreed that Obama is Muslim or enthusiastically blurted out. In commenting on our new president, "I have to support my fellow Muslim brother," would slip out of my mouth before I had a chance to think twice.

"Well, I know he's not really Muslim," I would quickly add. But if the person I was talking to was Muslim, they would say, "yes he is." They would cite his open nature and habit of reaching out to critics, reminiscent of the Prophet Muhammad's own approach, and also Obama's middle name, Hussein. Most of the Muslims I know (me included) can't seem to accept that Obama is not Muslim."

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Tempra,

Unless you hold all Muslims responsible for 9/11 there is no rational basis for opposing the Cordoba Center. There have been Mosques in the neighborhood for years.

By that logic, opponents aren't blaming all moslems for 9/11 since they haven't demanded the removal of those other mosques.

But holding people responsible for something based upon who they are and not what they've done is the definition of bigotry.

If they were being held responsible for 9/11, they'd all be imprisoned along with KSM after getting waterboarded.

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Funding of the project is a controversy unto itself, particularly after Rauf lied about where the money would come from.

So they are planning to seek taxpayer funds for the project? That can't be right, right? I mean, that would run straight up against the 1st amendment. The only way they could do that is to divest the mosque and make it a generic secular community center, and even then I'm not sure it would be approved.

because I can understand why it would upset people.

I agree with on this. I can see how someone could be upset by the location without being a bigot. I'll even join you in saying that more than half of the people in opposition don't hate Muslims at all. BUT I'm not willing to accept that those (irrational) feelings of discomfort are either reasonable or a logical basis for making public policy.

However, I'm not willing to extend this to the vocal voices like Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich. I don't think that they're personally bigots either, but they're clearly trying to play on the fears of their base by creating the illusion of some sort of terrorist base camp being built. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that the Cordoba center is going to be the headquarters for Islamic terrorism or that it's leaders will even express sympathy for al Qaeda and other extremist groups. The fact that some people are trying to lump them all together like that is bigotry -- the same kind of bigotry that says that all Christians are pedophiles or that Jews are Christ-killers.

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Guest Raidne

FLOW - I searched "mosque" before starting the thread and nothing came up besides the US Politics and Lockerbee bomber threads. What thread are you talking about?

ETA: Also, MM, I believe Tempra is referring to the fact that the Imam has not said that he will refuse contributions from Saudi Arabia and Iran. I was not aware that we were at war with Saudi Arabia and Iran, and, in fact, I thought we enjoyed a good relationship with the former, but shows you what I know.

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And yeah, I feel pretty damn comfortable stating that I think Al Qaeda is vehemently against religious tolerance and mutual respect. It doesn't exactly line up with the game plan. I'm pretty sure Al Qaeda is against Muslim sects that preach religious tolerance, period, whether they're on Ground Zero or not. That's exactly why it's such a great thing to put there. Seriously, if I was deliberately choosing things to locate in the neighborhood, that's what I'd pick. I really don't understand the protests. I don't get it.

You are right, you don't get it at all. Many of the various Muslim sub-groups don't like each other and some (like al-Qaeda) truly hate some of the others, but not to the point where they would oppose a mosque built in a predominantly Christian country. Al-Qaeda may regard the views of this imam as wrong or even heretical, but they're still far closer to their view of Islam than what stood there before (a Burlington Coat Factory). I have not seen anything from the Taliban or al-Qaeda on the subject, but here is what one of the leaders of Hamas (also a violent terrorist group) said on this subject:

A leader of the Hamas terror group yesterday jumped into the emotional debate on the plan to construct a mosque near Ground Zero -- insisting Muslims "have to build" it there.

"We have to build everywhere," said Mahmoud al-Zahar, a co-founder of Hamas and the organization's chief on the Gaza Strip.

See, I'm reading this over and over, and I have no idea WTF you're talking about. You realize their mosque is in this neighborhood already and has been for years, right? Can they keep that one? Or do they need to demolish it to be polite?

You misunderstand. I have nothing against mosques or the Muslims of New York City (so yes, they may keep that one). I would simply prefer that they not build on the sites of the buildings damaged on 9/11.

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By that logic, opponents aren't blaming all moslems for 9/11 since they haven't demanded the removal of those other mosques.

If they were being held responsible for 9/11, they'd all be imprisoned along with KSM after getting waterboarded.

wow, FLOW. Just, wow.

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