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What's wrong with 20-somethings?


Jaime L

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I was a paper-boy from 13-15, then worked at McDonald's from 16-18.*

>shudders<

That was such a shit job, and I never worked grill, only register. But I fully plan forcing said type of job on any children I have. Kids need to know how fucking shitty jobs can be. Made me support the idea of a living wage.

*then I worked for the county road commission every summer through college. Man, talk about your easy slack off jobs...

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could you explain a bit more why "strong family bond" = "voluntary service" or why that is ethically dubious?

It’s the notion that an individual’s interests should be subordinated to those of another individual. We do this in all kinds of personal relationships, of course, but in each of them except the parent-child dynamic there is at least some measure of consent. When a child becomes an adult, there is the option to refuse consent for the first time - and you say that this option should be as no option at all to a right-thinking person.

And it is a subordination, because the parent will always be a parent and any renegotiation of the nature of the relationship will be initiated by the parent - barring a refusal of consent or a threat thereof by the child. Relationships have inertia.

I don’t know why you think individualism is strictly a WASP or American or even Western phenomenon, though. Yes, Confucianism has long reigned supreme in East Asia, but notions of individual freedom and equality have at various times been espoused: Mohism in particular found some purchase in China, and Legalism is modestly egalitarian (all are as ants under the boot heel of the state). And there are certainly modern movements Mao unleashed, which have by and large been a good thing.

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Yeah, these jobs still exist, the thing is, they're now filled by others (older people desperate for something to do, or adults out of a job who need money, any kind of money, now)

Taking nothing away from the economic times we live in, as I know only too well, I think you overestimate the number of adults out of work flooding the job market in terms of the fast food industry.

Jax: Yeah? Personally, I think it's the terrible economy. It's not like most people living with their parents ideally want to be there, I don't think. There just aren't a lot of jobs out there where you can tread water at 40 hours a week and live outside the house right now and still have any money left to go out.

Raidne: I stand by my own personal assessment. However I can also agree with you.

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I cannot agree here either. Not entirely. It's a point to be sure, but the introductory service jobs, the McDonald's, the Wendy's...those jobs are always going to be there. They should be breeding grounds for the teenager looking to get a start with some sort of simple skills and social interactions that these jobs bring. However, due to the affluence of the parents throughout the 90s and into the 2000s, far to many teams would prefer to simply be handed cash and gifts because they feel entitled to it.

I am not entirely sure what the purpose of such a job is though. My parents never pushed me into getting one of them as a teenager because there were far more worthwhile activities in terms of getting into a good college and the money I would earn would not make a meaningful contribution to the family budget. I did have a part-time job during college, but again, I'm not sure whether that is worthwhile if it is not absolutely necessary -- I made more money (meaning, post-tax salary minus expenses) in my first month of post-graduation work than the post-tax salary from two semesters of the part-time job.

I guess it would make sense if the teenager is in need of character-building or if the family really needs money, but otherwise I don't see the point. Is this kind of job worth much on resumes?

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Guest Raidne

I did a co-op job filing at a doctor's office during the second semester of my senior year. The familiarity with medical records I gained doing this was actually a big plus in my interview for my current job, which I landed more an 11 years later.

Other than that, I did not work because I was the head of the debate team, a moot court state finalist, and the class president. :stillsick:

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Well I'm a 19 year old, I live at home, I don't have a job but I do go to school full time. I think some of this having a job through highschool is overrated I always felt well I'm a kid what do I need work for? in terms of money versus free time I always felt the time was more valuable and just do without the money, but then I also lacked a lot of the expenses people pay in highschool too. I didn't have a car, I didn't have a cell phone or any other cool gadgets and if I needed money for the movies or whatever I'd work for the neighbors for a day or two, because they had money and always had work in their yard that needed doing.

Now

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I've been married now for over 30 (THIRTY!!11) years, and my parents still tell me, "If it doesn't work out, we're keeping your room for you!" :love:

But I digress...

If this board has taught me anything, it's that you shouldn't think in generalities about ANYTHING. Everyone's an individual and will walk their own path. Never mind expectations. The only expectations you should worry about are your own.

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It’s the notion that an individual’s interests should be subordinated to those of another individual. We do this in all kinds of personal relationships, of course, but in each of them except the parent-child dynamic there is at least some measure of consent. When a child becomes an adult, there is the option to refuse consent for the first time - and you say that this option should be as no option at all to a right-thinking person.

And it is a subordination, because the parent will always be a parent and any renegotiation of the nature of the relationship will be initiated by the parent - barring a refusal of consent or a threat thereof by the child. Relationships have inertia.

I didn't say exactly that now did I. Do you have some sort of reading comprehension difficulty? I note that this is a second time you've miscontrued what I actually wrote; the first time (claiming that uniquely = abhorrent) could have been accidental, but this time it's trending deliberate.

To get back to the argument of the subordination of power within a parent-child relationship, are you suggesting that the bond and love between parents and children is somethind derived without consent and is therefore should be disregard as illegitimate? I find that deeply cynical and almost nihilistic.

And there are certainly modern movements Mao unleashed, which have by and large been a good thing.

Fascinating; what "modern movements" are those in regard to the issues being discussed in this thread?

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Do the parents of the adult children generally continue to be the head of the household, responsible for setting the household rules? Or does each family sub-unit have control over their own lives (to a certain extent)?

In my culture, in households that still have multiple generations living within the same house (or at least apartment complex) the "head of household" status slowly transitions from the parents to the children. Initially, the young adult has more or less the same status relative to the parents as he or she did during childhood. Once they marry and have children of their own, they're more or less equal -- the elders are still nominally above, but the grown-up children have a substantial say in what goes (whence the epic and renowned battles between mothers-in-law and daughters-in-law...). As the parents become old, the tables turn until eventually, their status as head of household is purely nominal -- the grown-up children call the shots. There are exceptions to this (e.g. if the parents are really wealthy, they can keep running the show well into old age), but this is generally how it goes.

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Do the parents of the adult children generally continue to be the head of the household, responsible for setting the household rules? Or does each family sub-unit have control over their own lives (to a certain extent)?

I don't think there's anything wrong with being an adult contributing member of a multi-generational household, but I don't think it can be called a positive sign of maturity if it hinges on having to accept the same beliefs and values as your parents.

That's a good point, and a healthy filial bond within multi-generational household should also come with mutually accepted parameters.

ETA: I also agree with Altherion's observation that "in households that still have multiple generations living within the same house (or at least apartment complex) the "head of household" status slowly transitions from the parents to the children."

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I am not entirely sure what the purpose of such a job is though. [...]

I guess it would make sense if the teenager is in need of character-building or if the family really needs money, but otherwise I don't see the point. Is this kind of job worth much on resumes?

A service industry job (not just in food service, but in retail or other customer facing jobs) may not pay much, that's for sure. But they're not meant to be living wage jobs. If a teen can work the low end of the service industry and do it with a good attitude, especially when faced with disgruntled customers, they are on their way to dealing with the real world.

Learning to work within the framework of the employee/manager/boss pays off big time down the road. Being on time, staying late, picking up shifts, etc. It builds an appreciation and empathy of what customer-facing workers go through. People I've known thow have worked in restaurants almost always seem to know how to get better service by treating waitstaff properly and leave generous tips. They know the **** these people endure to sling burgers and refill drinks with a smile.

When they're off to college they are much better equipped to deal with peers, professors, and others without having helicoptering parents stepping in to fix things for them.

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I think a lot of the "I don't feel like an adult" sentiment stems from how we view ourselves. I'm married, have a kid, am gainfully employed, and I run from the image of a mom pushing a stroller. I don't and can't see myself like that and it'll be a while before the self-image of "mother" is firmly mine.

That said, I am an adult. I feel like one. I'm financially independent and have been for a while now. I have freedom and damn, does it feel good. I am at the done end of growing up and there is a certain satisfaction knowing that aside from what life experiences may come my way, there isn't that much left to do except what I want to do for myself.

Maybe that's what makes the difference, this certainty. I don't question who I am, what I want to do for a living, or what my future will be like. I like to think I've got it figured out.

For the record, I started working at thirteen and held down jobs routinely through high school and college. I have not been absolutely jobless since I was sixteen and worked two jobs through college (and now through grad school).

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Or, you know, it starts young on the socialization of labour to accept our natural subservience.

And I say this as someone who's worked a lot of crap service jobs, worked them with pride and from necessity, and appreciates the maturity and personal responsibility necessary for the daily grind. But still, one of the neater things about living in a commune with a collective budget and that fallback was sometimes when we'd be offered a really crap job or asked to do something on illegal overtime with someone baldfacedly telling us they would then pay us less than minimum steal our wage, etc, etc - well, we would just turn around and walk away, which would just floor employers. They couldn't wrap their heads around the idea a bunch of teenagers would not beg at their feet for the mere opportunity to be abused as long as there were a few shekels at the end of it.

I believe very strongly in a labour ethos, but nothing there includes doing crap jobs as some kind of ideal character building exercise.

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I'd say their are several benefits to working during high school. From my own experience I learned which jobs I didn't want to do. Working as a bus-boy for crap pay certainly let me see the other side of the restaurant business. Compared to that, being a stock boy in a supermarket chain was so much better that I worked that job for three years until I went off to college. Painting houses was decent work and good pay, but wasn't as steady and neither were the 3 story ladders. And being on a roof in 90+ degree heat generally sucks.

I also learned how to budget my money and save for those things that I really wanted. It's for that reason I have been able to travel to and around Europe on my own dime and as well as take the time to do volunteer work while looking for a job.

Other than that, those jobs allowed me to be less dependent on my parents for every little, or big thing. That in turn taught me to really value my own financial independence, although someone's opinion might differ on whether that's necessary or not.

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I liked my high school job so much that I seriously considered going back and working there full time after graduating, even though it would have been underemployment. I worked at a locally owned orchard/garden. The business could have been made much more lucrative- the semi-retired and independently wealthy owner had gone from selling at the farmer's market to owning a restaurant and a produce store, and they were starting to take online orders. An employee who stuck with it would be set to buy out the business. It was the prospect of being tied to a business in my hometown that dissuaded me. Location is everything.

I think it's reasonable that high school aged children work during the summer, but don't have to turn down extra-curricular sports/music/study opportunities during the school year because they have to be at a job.

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I cannot agree here either. Not entirely. It's a point to be sure, but the introductory service jobs, the McDonald's, the Wendy's...those jobs are always going to be there. They should be breeding grounds for the teenager looking to get a start with some sort of simple skills and social interactions that these jobs bring. However, due to the affluence of the parents throughout the 90s and into the 2000s, far to many teams would prefer to simply be handed cash and gifts because they feel entitled to it.

I wouldn't say that those jobs are so plentiful as you might think it. My husband is 25 years old, has a good employment record, and has applied at pizza chains, Target, pet stores, just about any shitty-hourly job you can think of, and there are always too many applicants. So if it takes a college degree just to get one of those jobs, I can see that people who haven't even graduated high school don't have much to offer.

Which is not to say there aren't a lot of overly-entitled brats out there. But I think it IS significantly harder to break into the cheap-labor market at 14.

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