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Masjids in Manhattan II cookies to Raidne


Bellis

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The building of this facility is purportedly to bring people together in peace and friendship. It has accomplished the exact opposite, rather predicatably. Now, it's just the moslem version of the "We're here, we're queer" chant. It may make them feel better, but it's not bringing anyone together except to choose sides.

Rather predictably? Shame on these Muslims for taking us at our word that we're a tolerant country that provides religious freedom for all.

But seriously -- this project was on the books for months, and became a controversy just in time for mid-term elections when a bunch of attention-whoring Republicans went to town on it. So it's the imam's fault that someone else turned his community center into a political hot potato?

ETA: Damn, Bellis beat me to it, and has a better thread title.

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The building of this facility is purportedly to bring people together in peace and friendship. It has accomplished the exact opposite, rather predicatably. Now, it's just the moslem version of the "We're here, we're queer" chant. It may make them feel better, but it's not bringing anyone together except to choose sides.

If it has accomplished exactly the opposite, (I'm not at all convinced of this) it has done so thanks to an over-bloated media who turned this non-controversial local issue of a community center and shamefully blew it up into epic proportions to sell press. That and opinions like yours.

Whereas my friends and I have already agreed to visit the community center once its built and we're in New York, (as we did with the Bahi temple in Wilmette) since it provides a great opportunity to learn about another culture.

So peace and understanding are being promoted, even as we speak. We're not letting terror win. Unlike some.

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But hey, I don't pretend to be an expert or anything. But FLOW keeps telling me how misguided I am, so I'm curious to find out what his credentials are concerning Afghan people's views and priorities?

Okay. Other than my own experience in the region, which was in moslem countries but not Afghanistan, I have some pretty good contacts who are quite familiar with it and with whom I am in regular contact via either via email or personally.

There is one Marine battalion commander and one regimental commander with whom I shared a house for a couple of years back when I was still in. Still have regular contact with both. Another regimental commander with whom I went through Basic School, artillery school at Fort Sill, and who was in my battalion in Okinawa. He, the other regimental commander, myself, and two other guys were drinking and b.s. ing about this and other crap for about 12 hours last October at our 25th reunion.

I'm friends with a journalist who made an Iraq series for HBO. Met him because his dad happened to be one of my partners, we connected, and are in regular comunication. His views on the whole WOT shifted from pretty far left to pretty hard right after spending time in Iraq, and he's been to Aghanistan 3 times.

My best friend in a doc in the Navy, and his two brothers are both ex-SEALS. One was also a doc, the other was Chief of Staff for a SEAL team. I've seen him about three times since he was transferred stateside, and same deal with lots of talking about what's going on over drinks in Virginia Beach.

I also do free legal work for the Marines in a reserve battalion headquarted nearby, usually talking with or seeing a Marine a week, on average. Been doing that for at least 5 years pretty regularly except when they've been deployed. I know a few of the officers pretty decently as well through this. I'm also very active in my local alumni association, which routinely has speakers/guests who have spent considerable time in the region.

I'm sure other people have their own sources and information.

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You meant they should have foreseen the fabricated lies and fury stoke up by rightwing bigots for political advantages and the general lack of care of your average American for things like facts and professed respect for fundamental liberties?

Honestly, they probably should have foreseen that. But considering even Laura Ingraham was supporting them a year ago, maybe they did not imagine the current level of assult from the right wing media.

They're Sufis. They let a woman lead them in prayer.

Wow, I had no idea. That's seriously "heretical."

Don't forget to mention that Muslim restaurant you eat at after 9/11, Flow.

:lol: Oh man...You have a long memory...

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[mod] Let's not make this discussion personal. It's one thing to ask what background someone has, it's another thing to make it about them and not the issue at hand. That way lies flamewars and that means an end to the thread. [/mod]

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Wow, I had no idea. That's seriously "heretical."

I might have been exaggerating for effect, much like the right wing victory monument types. Though the nearby Masjid Al-Farah, which is sufi, is led by a woman, dunno if she leads salat (ritual prayer) or only dhikr (sufi chanting).

Raidne linked to an article in the other thread about grassroots US movements of females leading mixed-group ritual prayer.

There's a long history of women-only, women-led mosques in Central Asia/Western China.

Not to mention hadith precedent from Muhammed's time.

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From Raidne,

Imam Rauf's wife, Daisy, who is Indian and a recipient of the Interfaith Center Award for Promoting Peace and Interfaith Understanding, is comparing the reaction to "metastasised antisemitism." I'd say that's about right.

Expect for more trumped up outrages from the ADL any time now. Also, I just found out that Rabbi Joy Levitt, executive director of the Jewish Community Center in Manhattan, is also an adviser on the Park51 project and appeared with Daisy Khan on the same interview with ABC News:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/politicolive/0810/Islamic_center_leader_says_site_project_is_not_moving_.html?showall

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Guest Raidne

His views on the whole WOT shifted from pretty far left to pretty hard right after spending time in Iraq, and he's been to Aghanistan 3 times.

I'm thinking you must mean the Wheel of Time, because last I checked there aren't really identifiable left-wing and right-wing positions on the so-called War on Terror, unless you mean the idea that all Muslims are on the other side, naturally. Or do you mean he decided it was wise to invade Iraq? It's just not clear to me.

But thanks for the background. You might think about reading some stuff from academics who have traveled in the region, or, I don't know, actual Afghanis to perhaps round it out a bit. I'm not convinced that they are pouring out their hearts to American soldiers, nor am I convinced that American soldiers are doing a very good job of interacting and forming bonds with Afghanis, although I certainly wish them the best in that endeavor.

Also, I'd have to imagine that there are people in Afghanistan that aren't villager characters straight out of Air and are a little wary about the American public, the real story on our beliefs on Islam, and how full of shit Bush's statements about Americans understanding that a war on terror is not a war on Islam could possibly be.

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FLOW,

Okay. Other than my own experience in the region, which was in moslem countries but not Afghanistan, I have some pretty good contacts who are quite familiar with it and with whom I am in regular contact via either via email or personally.

There is one Marine battalion commander and one regimental commander with whom I shared a house for a couple of years back when I was still in. Still have regular contact with both. Another regimental commander with whom I went through Basic School, artillery school at Fort Sill, and who was in my battalion in Okinawa. He, the other regimental commander, myself, and two other guys were drinking and b.s. ing about this and other crap for about 12 hours last October at our 25th reunion.

I'm friends with a journalist who made an Iraq series for HBO. Met him because his dad happened to be one of my partners, we connected, and are in regular comunication. His views on the whole WOT shifted from pretty far left to pretty hard right after spending time in Iraq, and he's been to Aghanistan 3 times.

My best friend in a doc in the Navy, and his two brothers are both ex-SEALS. One was also a doc, the other was Chief of Staff for a SEAL team. I've seen him about three times since he was transferred stateside, and same deal with lots of talking about what's going on over drinks in Virginia Beach.

I also do free legal work for the Marines in a reserve battalion headquarted nearby, usually talking with or seeing a Marine a week, on average. Been doing that for at least 5 years pretty regularly except when they've been deployed. I know a few of the officers pretty decently as well through this. I'm also very active in my local alumni association, which routinely has speakers/guests who have spent considerable time in the region.

I'm sure other people have their own sources and information.

Thanks for the info. :)

Am I correct in guessing that you served time in the military?

However, as Raidne pointed out as well, I couldn't help but notice that all your connections to Afghanistan and Afghans are from the "other side" (i.e. your own side). I'm not sure how helpful that is when you try to determine how the average Afghan villager thinks.

In fact, I'd argue it's downright unhelpful, since you undoubtedly see your buddies and American soldiers in general automatically as "the good guys" and anyone that attacks them is automatically "the bad guys". This is exactly the sort of black-and-white thinking that I was getting at in the previous thread.

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But thanks for the background. You might think about reading some stuff from academics who have traveled in the region, or, I don't know, actual Afghanis to perhaps round it out a bit. I'm not convinced that they are pouring out their hearts to American soldiers, nor am I convinced that American soldiers are doing a very good job of interacting and forming bonds with Afghanis, although I certainly wish them the best in that endeavor.

Also, I'd have to imagine that there are people in Afghanistan that aren't villager characters straight out of Air and are a little wary about the American public, the real story on our beliefs on Islam, and how full of shit Bush's statements about Americans understanding that a war on terror is not a war on Islam could possibly be.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

This shouldn't even be an "Us vs. Them" issue, but unfortunately the Republican shits have turned it into one. Many of those people are also Christian fundamentalists who genuinely are unable to hold America to a higher standard than Saudi Arabia.

I don't like the Islamic traditions for the most part, and I'm not religious at all. But I do have more respect for Sufi Muslims than for whatever Christian sect those wingnuts are.

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I couldn't have said it better myself.

This shouldn't even be an "Us vs. Them" issue, but unfortunately the Republican shits have turned it into one. Many of those people are also Christian fundamentalists who genuinely are unable to hold America to a higher standard than Saudi Arabia.

It seems relevant to once again point out that there are a lot of democrats who also oppose the mosque.

Carry on......

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from the previous thread:

FLOW,

Rosa Parks' action was a political statement regarding unjust laws. Upsetting people was a necessary step if those laws were to be discussed and changed.

That it was, but let's leave the issue of legality on the side for a moment and simply focus on how it made people feel. (Pretend for a moment that Rosa Parks' action was technically legal, for argument's sake.)

If we take the line of reasoning currently advanced by the mosque opponents, then Rosa Parks should have forseen the shit storm that her action was bound to cause, since it was offensive to white folks. And clearly, if Martin Luther King hoped to achieve his dream of racial harmony, then he and the blacks should have refrained from causing such needless controversy, which was bound to result in the exact opposite of the racial harmony they were supposedly seeking.

But, you know, maybe both sides were simply getting too hysterical. I'm sure a reasonable compromise could have been found, such as perhaps allowing blacks to sit in the middle of the bus, or maybe (if we want to be radical) they could even be allowed to sit at the front, provided that no white person wanted to use the seat. But if a black person uses such a seat up front and a white person gets on later, the black person should have to vacate the seat. Sounds like a fair compromise, no?

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It seems relevant to once again point out that there are a lot of democrats who also oppose the mosque.

Carry on......

It also seems relevant that, when told the whole story about the "mosque", most people with a semblance of intelligence bashfully say, "oh" and rethink their opinion.

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This shouldn't even be an "Us vs. Them" issue, but unfortunately the Republican shits have turned it into one. Many of those people are also Christian fundamentalists who genuinely are unable to hold America to a higher standard than Saudi Arabia.

I think people are seeing the conflict here in two completely different ways. For someone who sees a war between, at its narrowest, extremist Islamic fundamentalists and the US or the west, even with all possible caveats and understandings that this is only a tiny splinter of Islam and America is not exactly the knight in shining armour it could be itself and so on, nevertheless a mosque, which is associated with Islam, at ground zero, is a bad idea - I can totally get that.

The problem is I don't think that is the conflict, and I guess this isn't how Raidne sees it, becuase to go back all the way to the original OP, to her a mosque dosen't seem like a compromise or uncomfortable but necessary adherence to principles of freedom of religeon or whathaveyou, but it really is a victory mosque: If the real conflict is between the people who want to end the war, and people who want it continued - probably becuase it creates circumstances that give them wealth and authority.

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