Sandor and Sansa

[Alexia]

He's certainly using her and is creepy towards her, but on the other hand probably is starting to see her as family.

Family in what sense, though? I don't believe he's begun to look at her as a daughter, primarily because of the kissing (and complaints when she doesn't do it the way he likes) and the sitting in laps. Has he begun to develop a sort of bond with her? Yeah, I see it. Is it the sort of bond that develops in a healthy family environment? I don't think so.

She's very uneasy, but thinks she has no-one else in the world and whilst she knows he's using her, is still grateful to him for a lot (which you may argue is Stockholm Syndrome of a type).

I'd agree with this. From Sansa's perspective, LF's treatment is far better than being stripped naked in public and beaten, or being forcibly married to a scion of a family that helped to massacre hers for her inheritance. And it really is better treatment than the Lannisters gave her, but that doesn't make any of it right or not abusive.

What I think is going to be interesting is when Sansa learns of LF's role in her father's death. How she will learn is a big question mark right now but that's too glaring an event for her not to learn of it (an example of GRRM playing coy right there - after all, its not spelled out that LF told Joff to kill him but its a pretty solid theory that he did...)

I think it's waaaaay more interesting than that.

I'd agree, when you frame it the way you do in this post. :)

[Jackals Justice]

Family in what sense, though? I don't believe he's begun to look at her as a daughter, primarily because of the kissing (and complaints when she doesn't do it the way he likes) and the sitting in laps. Has he begun to develop a sort of bond with her? Yeah, I see it. Is it the sort of bond that develops in a healthy family environment? I don't think so.

I'd agree with this. From Sansa's perspective, LF's treatment is far better than being stripped naked in public and beaten, or being forcibly married to a scion of a family that helped to massacre hers for her inheritance. And it really is better treatment than the Lannisters gave her, but that doesn't make any of it right or not abusive.

What I think is going to be interesting is when Sansa learns of LF's role in her father's death. How she will learn is a big question mark right now but that's too glaring an event for her not to learn of it (an example of GRRM playing coy right there - after all, its not spelled out that LF told Joff to kill him but its a pretty solid theory that he did...)

I'd agree, when you frame it the way you do in this post. :)

My money's on LF telling her himself, right before he kills her(or tries to)

[Gravedigger]

In literary novels, we are perfectly capable of accepting that an older man might find a girl stimulating company and a girl might be drawn to an older man. Colonel Brandon is in his late thirties and Marianne 15 or 16 in Sense and Sensibility yet no Austen fans are fraught that these people should like one another. Is it because there is an implicit suggestion of sexual chemistry in Martin's novels between Sandor and Sansa which both are navigating, where the sexuality is repressed (but still inevitably present) in S&S?

I suggest this comparison because Sansa is clearly linked to a character tradition of girls whose adult lives are affected by their reading, think Marianne but also Madame Bovary (although I hope Sansa avoids mirroring HER further).

In modern life, such connections are ubiquitous. Every second local newspaper runs a story about a teacher and a pupil. We don't have to like it. This stuff happens. The general rule - in life as in literature - is that the girl needs to learn a lesson from the older partner. Does this hold true for Sansa? Plausible isn't it?

Some readers find his violence a worry; they are scared Sandor might rape Sansa. He hasn't. It is made clear that Sandor would like to be with her, but not - in the end - take her by force. Yeees he's a killer. But Sandor is such a great character because he exposes the hypocrisy of knighthood where killing is his currency. Sansa bases her romantic leanings upon the veneer of chivalry which he breaks utterly.

Sansa and Sandor's wonderfully confused and hesitant and headlong mutual interest is fascinating for me because of her youthfulness, her aesthetic & romantic outlook which is challenged by Sandor's terrible experiences, his appearance and aggressive adherance to realism. Their connection makes ASOIAF more rich for its complexity.

[Nukelavee]

about the "creepiness" factor, regarding Sansa/Sandor, Littlefinger/Sansa, Tyrion/Sansa (hmmmmm, a trend?), and Dany/ everybody... c'mon, folks, quit projecting our values to a different world, it doesn't matter. Sansa is old enough to bear children - therefor, it doesn't matter the age of her "partner", not in the "creepy middle-aged dude out for jailbait" way we see it.

plus - and, yes, it is a big age gap, but remember - most of teh "name" characters in the series? under 40. much of what people say about many characters (like Ned) being stupid or foolish? even in that kind of world, 35 isn't old, mentally or emotionally.

just to put things in perspective.

as far as the attraction? Sansa symbolizes everything that Sandor KNOWS teh world lacks, hence the attraction and the hatred. add any romantic stuff you want, simmer, serve in 5 more years.

[Theano]

Hello, my name is Elaine, and I'm a Sandor Clegane fan. (Should that go in the Unpopular Opinions thread...?)

My very favorite fairy tale from when I was a little girl was Beauty and the Beast. (And if you've never read Robin McKinley's Beauty, you're missing out!) I loved meeting the Beast, being afraid of the Beast, and slowly realizing that there was something more than his beastly appearance in there. Oddly, the worst part of the story for me has always been when he turns back into a boring ol' prince. It ruins it.

(And let's not forget the shades of the Phantom of the Opera--especially when Sandor forces Sansa to sing for him...)

So, yeah, I like the Sandor/Sansa dynamic. Neither one of these characters is what they seem.

Sansa is a girly girl who loves nothing better than to listen to/read the equivalent of Arthurian tales where the knight in shining armor rescues the fair maiden. And of course, she wants to be the fair maiden waiting for a rescue. Unfortunately, those sorts of fairy tales always gloss over the horrors that fair maidens needed to be rescued from, and I doubt Sansa ever thought about it any deeper than "Oh, how romantic!!!1!" Well, she's gotten what she wished for, and I for one have enjoyed the journey.

Sandor, on the other hand, was never a sheltered child. He was abused by his brother, (seemingly) neglected by his father, and has grown up cynical and cruel. But--he's the sworn shield of a child. When he jumps into the tourney to protect Loras, maybe he's protecting someone he sees as a child. When he comes between Joffrey and Sansa, he's protecting a child. It seems like Mycah's killing may have been very hard on him. This is not to say that the murder was okay, but I doubt he'd have killed Mycah if he hadn't been ordered to do so. It kind of seems like he tends to protect kids, maybe because no one protected him when he was a kid. There's more to Sandor than a cruel beast, just like there's more to Sansa than a dimwitted airhead. (Another Unpopular Opinion...)

Sansa is not the girl who started out from Winterfell. She's learned an awful lot about human nature, the hard way. It's interesting that when whoever-it-was (can't remember his name) intervened between Marillion and her, the first thing she thought when she heard a rasping voice was that it was the Hound. Her gut reaction is not fear, but that he'll protect her. Petyr, on the other hand, has to convince her to trust him--and just the fact that she questions his plans shows how much she's grown, at least to me.

However. If Sandor and Sansa do get reunited (something I dearly hope for!) I don't think Sandor will save her. I think that, by that point, she will have started to become someone who can save herself. If Petyr is ever killed, I think it'll be Sansa doing it, not Sandor. Maybe the Mockingbird will fly... That journey down the mountain with Sweetrobin--yeah, Sansa was scared, but she put on just enough of a pretense of fright in order to badger little Robert into "protecting" her. (If she'd acted as scared as she was, that would have sent him into fits.) That shows more than just her natural acting chops, it shows a growing ability to read people and act on what she's learned.

The age difference doesn't bother me terribly. It's in a medieval setting, and girls were married off as soon as they could breed--usually to older men--simply as a fact of life. People had to do all kinds of terrible things just to survive.

Sansa's relationship with Petyr squicks me a hell of a lot more than her relationship with Sandor. As misguided as she may be, Sansa seems to trust Sandor, mostly because of his (brutal) honesty. Petyr's given her nothing but lies, and I fully expect her to start seeing through them. He seems like he sees her as something between her mother and his daughter, and this creeps the everliving hell out of me. Remember that Petyr has a memory of taking Cat's maidenhead--but we learn later on that he was drunk, and it was Lysa he slept with. I think that's part of the reason he killed her, when he realized what had actually happened.

We're seeing a lot of things happening, I think. We're seeing Sansa grow up, wiser and more capable. We're seeing Jaime Lannister, of all people, take a redemptive path after what happened with Bran (and oh, how mad I was when I realized he was turning into a good guy!). We're seeing Sandor--if the gravedigger theory is correct, and I sure hope it is--on something that also looks like a redemptive path. But if Sansa might be learning to take care of herself, then why would Sandor need to rescue her?

All that being said (sorry for the length!)--I hope GRRM keeps both of them as grey characters. I don't want Woobie!Sandor. I desperately hope for Darth Sansa. The Beast turns into a (handsome and gallant) prince; the Phantom releases Christine for the sake of Twue Wuv. But GRRM seems to like knocking archetypes on their ears, and while I don't think this fairy tale's going to end the way it might in the hands of a traditionalist, I do expect it to be satisfying.

[nevermore]

Hello, my name is Elaine, and I'm a Sandor Clegane fan. (Should that go in the Unpopular Opinions thread...?)

My very favorite fairy tale from when I was a little girl was Beauty and the Beast. (And if you've never read Robin McKinley's Beauty, you're missing out!) I loved meeting the Beast, being afraid of the Beast, and slowly realizing that there was something more than his beastly appearance in there. Oddly, the worst part of the story for me has always been when he turns back into a boring ol' prince. It ruins it.

(And let's not forget the shades of the Phantom of the Opera--especially when Sandor forces Sansa to sing for him...)

So, yeah, I like the Sandor/Sansa dynamic. Neither one of these characters is what they seem.

Sansa is a girly girl who loves nothing better than to listen to/read the equivalent of Arthurian tales where the knight in shining armor rescues the fair maiden. And of course, she wants to be the fair maiden waiting for a rescue. Unfortunately, those sorts of fairy tales always gloss over the horrors that fair maidens needed to be rescued from, and I doubt Sansa ever thought about it any deeper than "Oh, how romantic!!!1!" Well, she's gotten what she wished for, and I for one have enjoyed the journey.

Sandor, on the other hand, was never a sheltered child. He was abused by his brother, (seemingly) neglected by his father, and has grown up cynical and cruel. But--he's the sworn shield of a child. When he jumps into the tourney to protect Loras, maybe he's protecting someone he sees as a child. When he comes between Joffrey and Sansa, he's protecting a child. It seems like Mycah's killing may have been very hard on him. This is not to say that the murder was okay, but I doubt he'd have killed Mycah if he hadn't been ordered to do so. It kind of seems like he tends to protect kids, maybe because no one protected him when he was a kid. There's more to Sandor than a cruel beast, just like there's more to Sansa than a dimwitted airhead. (Another Unpopular Opinion...)

Sansa is not the girl who started out from Winterfell. She's learned an awful lot about human nature, the hard way. It's interesting that when whoever-it-was (can't remember his name) intervened between Marillion and her, the first thing she thought when she heard a rasping voice was that it was the Hound. Her gut reaction is not fear, but that he'll protect her. Petyr, on the other hand, has to convince her to trust him--and just the fact that she questions his plans shows how much she's grown, at least to me.

However. If Sandor and Sansa do get reunited (something I dearly hope for!) I don't think Sandor will save her. I think that, by that point, she will have started to become someone who can save herself. If Petyr is ever killed, I think it'll be Sansa doing it, not Sandor. Maybe the Mockingbird will fly... That journey down the mountain with Sweetrobin--yeah, Sansa was scared, but she put on just enough of a pretense of fright in order to badger little Robert into "protecting" her. (If she'd acted as scared as she was, that would have sent him into fits.) That shows more than just her natural acting chops, it shows a growing ability to read people and act on what she's learned.

The age difference doesn't bother me terribly. It's in a medieval setting, and girls were married off as soon as they could breed--usually to older men--simply as a fact of life. People had to do all kinds of terrible things just to survive.

Sansa's relationship with Petyr squicks me a hell of a lot more than her relationship with Sandor. As misguided as she may be, Sansa seems to trust Sandor, mostly because of his (brutal) honesty. Petyr's given her nothing but lies, and I fully expect her to start seeing through them. He seems like he sees her as something between her mother and his daughter, and this creeps the everliving hell out of me. Remember that Petyr has a memory of taking Cat's maidenhead--but we learn later on that he was drunk, and it was Lysa he slept with. I think that's part of the reason he killed her, when he realized what had actually happened.

We're seeing a lot of things happening, I think. We're seeing Sansa grow up, wiser and more capable. We're seeing Jaime Lannister, of all people, take a redemptive path after what happened with Bran (and oh, how mad I was when I realized he was turning into a good guy!). We're seeing Sandor--if the gravedigger theory is correct, and I sure hope it is--on something that also looks like a redemptive path. But if Sansa might be learning to take care of herself, then why would Sandor need to rescue her?

All that being said (sorry for the length!)--I hope GRRM keeps both of them as grey characters. I don't want Woobie!Sandor. I desperately hope for Darth Sansa. The Beast turns into a (handsome and gallant) prince; the Phantom releases Christine for the sake of Twue Wuv. But GRRM seems to like knocking archetypes on their ears, and while I don't think this fairy tale's going to end the way it might in the hands of a traditionalist, I do expect it to be satisfying.

very detailed analysis and i agree with nearly every single interpretation. Sansa sees LF as a creepy uncle. Sansa sees the hound as a byrionic hero. Sansa sees Tyrion as a tormentor. Sansa will probably end up killing LF when he is about do something evil (kill Sweetrobin perhaps?) and if Sandor and Sansa meet up, Sansa would have to take the initiative to get the relationship started if it does, after which i see the hound dying as he protects her because this is George RR Martin we speaking of. Sansa and Tyrion would never work, she had already met the hound before and was interested in him somewhat, Tyrion was thrusted upon her and she can't make her self love him, though she could have been capable of it, but situations didn't allow for an exactly good meeting.

Now the hound is a dog that has never been loved or loved anyone else. He was probably scared because Sansa didn't react as he expects her to react around him but at the same he craved her company and love. You are right he takes a protector role around kids, though i don't think he was repentant when he killed Mycah, probably drunk out of his mind or he didn't even do it (anyone explicitly see him do it?) and he is tormented soul. Everyone speaks of the hound as a bit of loner but he always had his own honour (Berric was sure he wouldn't kill them in their sleep) which shows that most of the people who have met him, don't fear him in the same way they fear the mountain (the elder Cleagane was the true monster i think Jaime said) he can kill people easily without hesitation but he doesn't kill them using sly tactics or cruelly. Also i think he does remorse over the people he kills (gets drunk all the time)

haven't heard of him raping anyone either. but i could be wrong.

[Lord Godric]

Hello, my name is Elaine, and I'm a Sandor Clegane fan. (Should that go in the Unpopular Opinions thread...?)

I actually think that most people seem to like Sandor and especially Sandor/Sansa. (I, myself, am not one of them).

It seems like Mycah's killing may have been very hard on him.

What makes you think this? I thought that Sandor had no problem with killing Mycah. He's no Gregor, bashing kids heads off the wall, but I still don't think he was terrible torn about killing a child.

[Lord Godric]

very detailed analysis and i agree with nearly every single interpretation. Sansa sees LF as a creepy uncle. Sansa sees the hound as a byrionic hero.

I find this interesting. I know a lot of people agree with this interpretation (and certainly I agree with the part about Littlefinger being a creepy uncle) but I have always found the Hound to be equally creepy around Sansa. He certainly was kind to her when Joffrey was tormenting her, but the way he acted around her when he was drunk and they were alone was nothing short of creepy.

or he didn't even do it (anyone explicitly see him do it?)

I don't think so -- but Ned certainly did she Mycah's body.

[Theano]

What makes you think this? I thought that Sandor had no problem with killing Mycah. He's no Gregor, bashing kids heads off the wall, but I still don't think he was terrible torn about killing a child.

I'm not completely sure of it. The mention of glittering eyes when he talks to Ned about it--was it glee? Not sure. And the way he talked to Arya about it--still not sure it was glee. He talked about taking a song from Sansa in the same way, and I just can't see him taking joy in the fact that he did it, as he certainly didn't seem happy while he was doing it. Doesn't ring true, but that's nothing more than a gut feeling. He says he should have killed Sansa rather than leave her for the Imp--but I don't read in that him actually wishing to have killed her for the sake of killing her, but seeing marriage to the Imp as a fate worse than death. A different sort of protection, but one just as twisted up as he is?

[Theano]

He certainly was kind to her when Joffrey was tormenting her, but the way he acted around her when he was drunk and they were alone was nothing short of creepy.

As much of a fangirl as I am, I have to agree with this. But this is part of why I like his character, as weird as that sounds. His dark nature is part of what makes him such a great character. (But I wouldn't want to meet him down a dark alley in reality, especially if he was drunk!)

[nevermore]

I find this interesting. I know a lot of people agree with this interpretation (and certainly I agree with the part about Littlefinger being a creepy uncle) but I have always found the Hound to be equally creepy around Sansa. He certainly was kind to her when Joffrey was tormenting her, but the way he acted around her when he was drunk and they were alone was nothing short of creepy.

I don't think so -- but Ned certainly did she Mycah's body.

hey hey, there is romantic tensions between the two (at least i believe there was) also Sansa did touch his face (which was before he kissed her) which showed a spark or something. different from LF 'come sit on papa's lap' and where he's just living out his fantasy of Catelyn number 2.

[Amae Koromo]

He is obviously attracted to her. And it's not like he is the only one.

Theon was attracted to her

Marillion (Lysa's singer) was, as well

Littlefinger obviously

Tyrion was also obviously attracted to her

Jayme also seemed to hold a high opinion of her looks, commenting on her marriage to Tyrion

And I'm quite sure that I'm forgetting about some guys.

[Lord Godric]

hey hey, there is romantic tensions between the two (at least i believe there was) also Sansa did touch his face (which was before he kissed her) which showed a spark or something. different from LF 'come sit on papa's lap' and where he's just living out his fantasy of Catelyn number 2.

I agree that Littlefinger is creepy, but I think Sandor is equally creepy. The worst scene is when Sandor is fleeing from the Battle of the Blackwater and takes his song from Sansa. I think that is very similar to Littlefinger's "come sit on papa's lap" attitude.

[moonjump05]

I agree that Littlefinger is creepy, but I think Sandor is equally creepy. The worst scene is when Sandor is fleeing from the Battle of the Blackwater and takes his song from Sansa. I think that is very similar to Littlefinger's "come sit on papa's lap" attitude.

Nothing is creepier than "come sit on papa's lap".

Sansa herself is creeped out by LF all the way back at the Hand's Tourney! I squirm in distaste myself whenever I read it. Sandor isn't nearly as creepy as LF, mainly because Sansa doesn't think so. Sure she's scared of Sandor, but also drawn to him, but she's consistently shown to be unnerved by LF. So I take Sansa's side.

[nevermore]

I agree that Littlefinger is creepy, but I think Sandor is equally creepy. The worst scene is when Sandor is fleeing from the Battle of the Blackwater and takes his song from Sansa. I think that is very similar to Littlefinger's "come sit on papa's lap" attitude.

maybe our views on what is creepy and what is not is different. i for one think that he wasn't being creepy when he asked her for that song, it seemed pretty natural because he was always going on about it before that, i don't think in his head he was ever going to rape her or something. He obviously was attracted to her, which is what i think you are saying is creepy, but really LF is just weird, he treats her like a daughter and then kisses her and crap like that. I think being abused by a father type figure is worse than singing a song for some dude who you probably already like or was interested in. but thats just me, and i think you were just creeped out by the romantic thing going on between them.

[Whitering]

At the point in the story when Sansa last interacted with the Hound, she recognizes that he really is the first Lannister she's been overtly exposed to who has actively protected her, though Tyrion of course takes over a bit.

Even though the Hound scared her when he told his story of Gregor's abuse, she probably recognized it on some level as a gift.

It was pretty clear he was in pain when he asked for the song, she already knew about his aversion to fire, though I don't know if she knew how bad it was outside.

I found the scene very touching because in the dark, he was the best man anywhere close to her at that time. With the lights on she saw what everybody else saw, a scary dude.

I for one think Arya was right to let him die in pain, cutting down a little kid is all I would need to consign him to hell for near eternity, but Sansa never gave Mycah a second thought, so why should she care? Otherwise she just knows his fearsome reputation, but she saw him save Loras, and also help her out and show her a certain amount of kindness.

I think she is still creeped out by Littlefinger, but he has saved her from horrible situations, hasn't forced himself on her other than a few kisses (she is not his daughter and is of "marriageable" age). I don't think it's right, he has a fiduciary duty to her but I think it's pretty clear to Sansa that he saved her life.

One thing I can't remember, is it Littlefinger that lets Tywin know that the Tyrells are planning to steal her away?

[nevermore]

later on she will realise that he was manipulating her and wasn't saving her for no reasons other than his own.

[Whitering]

later on she will realise that he was manipulating her and wasn't saving her for no reasons other than his own.

I presume you mean Littlefinger. We are still blind as to his overall motivations. It might simply be wealth or enjoyment of watching chaos.

[nevermore]

I presume you mean Littlefinger. We are still blind as to his overall motivations. It might simply be wealth or enjoyment of watching chaos.

yes, i have habit of not quoting text, just assume that my post carried on from the one above :) and i think LF hasn't got a goal, he's just playing the game because if you don't play you lose, there is no middle ground, that has been made clear throughout the series.

[Sidonie]

You know, once UnGregor is killed, Sandor will inherit his family's lands. I don't think it's so far fetched to think that they might even possibly MARRY in the future. Sansa's been learning that how a person looks is not at all what's important (she thought Joffrey was handsome, that the beautiful Queen Cersie was kind). I think she might just marry him eventually. Now that's pretty extreme, I know, so I atleast think one day he'll wind up swearing his sword to her, as her personal protector. Who knows, maybe if became religious (a possibly in AFFC) he won't WANT to have any type of physical relationship with her, and just devote his love to her through his (ahem, steel) sword.