Sandor and Sansa

[Myrish swan]

I think Sandor is......well, not necessarily 'good' but definitely not mean and cruel like his brother. This less awful side is too often blunted by the fact that he hates his brother so much that he ends of hating himself for being related to him.

Well, if we’re comparing everybody to Gregor Clegane in terms of morality, then everybody else pretty much wins. And I mean EVERYBODY—Cersei, Theon Greyjoy, Septon Utt, pretty much 99.999 percent of the population of Westeros.

The argument that while Sandor may be bad, he’s not as bad as a psychopathic mass murderer and rapist is one that I’ve always found pretty weak. Nevertheless, it seems to be something that is used frequently with Sandor. (If not always explicitly stated, the comparison is often implied.)

Also, there is the whole Littlefinger coparison, which is also often used to make Sandor look more sympathetic. People argue that Littlefinger is a pervy creep, while Sandor is a rough, misguided, but basically decent protector for Sansa. I’d argue that though his affection for Sansa is highly creepy, Littlefinger has at least never threatened to rape her. Sandor has, and though many here apparently disagree with me, I think that in that scene during Blackwater Sansa came a lot closer to being raped or murdered than anyone would like to admit. Sandor was extremely drunk and had nothing to lose. Sansa managed to appeal to his better nature by singing that song, however, what if she’d reacted differently? I could easily see the situation getting out of control somehow, and Sandor slitting his “little bird’s” throat.

I am not trying to imply that Littlefinger is at all better than Sandor. LF's simultaneous desire to make Sansa both his daughter and his lover is revolting. Furthermore, he's obviously trying to use psychological manipulation and his position of power as her ward to seduce Sansa, all while using her as a pawn in his games. But I think readers have the tendency to glorify Sandor when comparing him to LF.

-Both try to do the right thing at times but these gestures go either unnoticed or are repayed with cruelty or indifference (Tyrion: Shae, Sansa. Sandor: Arya, Sansa)

-Tyrion seems to think of himself as a monster after killing Shae. Sandor thought of himself as a monster from the get go.

How the hell did Tyrion do the right thing with Shae? He basically paid her in exchange for sex. He treated her like an object, explicitly stating at several points that he did not want to talk to her, just screw her. He slapped her to keep her in line when she (fairly) mocked him for being afraid of his daddy.

Of course, Tyrion gave Shae money and possessions. Well, I’d argue that he did that for her because she slept with him. The things he gave her were compensation for doing her job. As for “treating her kindly,” it seems that Tyrion’s treatment of Shae was pretty standard for a Westeros male interacting with a prostitute. He could have treated her far worse, but he did not show any unusual degree of love, resepect, or selflessness when interacting with her. His much vaunted “love” of her was simply love for her body and the idea of love itself.

Shae was a beautiful young woman, she could have easily found a well off man eventually to take care of her financially for a while. And he may have even not ended up strangling her to death with a necklace.

[nevermore]

You know, once UnGregor is killed, Sandor will inherit his family's lands. I don't think it's so far fetched to think that they might even possibly MARRY in the future. Sansa's been learning that how a person looks is not at all what's important (she thought Joffrey was handsome, that the beautiful Queen Cersie was kind). I think she might just marry him eventually. Now that's pretty extreme, I know, so I atleast think one day he'll wind up swearing his sword to her, as her personal protector. Who knows, maybe if became religious (a possibly in AFFC) he won't WANT to have any type of physical relationship with her, and just devote his love to her through his (ahem, steel) sword.

i thought gregor is already dead?

Myrish Swann

i can't be bothered to argue about the hound, so i'll leave it up to you if you want to change your mind after reading this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byronic_hero

you are meant to feel empathy for the byrionic hero. But obviously if you dont, you dont.

i don't know what type of villain LF is, but he's the type that has no remorse and won't surviv the series. Shows you his character, in a way he is worse than the Mountain, while the Mountain rapes and kills, LF causes catastrophe on a grand scale with exactly the same amount of indifference of Gregor.

[Myrish swan]

I think its wrong to assume that because Sandor is attracted to Sansa in some way that his motives are sinister or sexual. The brutal, callous character he pretends to be would make jokes about that sort of thing, but there is no evidence that he is a rapist of young girls and I don't believe it for a second.

Okay… aside from the fact that Sandor almost does rape a young girl, in the battle of the Blackwater scene. Your contention that “he never would have done it” is fairly weak. He had her pinned down with the knife to her throat.

If the “evidence” that Sandor intended to rape Sansa at some point was simply his own admission to Arya that he should have “fucked her (Sansa) bloody…” and that he “intended to take her, too” then I would agree with you. These “confessions” could easily be written off as the products of a miserable, self- loathing man trying to get little girl to put him out of his misery. However, as it stands, we also have the Blackwater scene, which is not so easy to write off.

As for Sandor’s “intentions” towards Sansa, I don’t think it is so simple. He obviously cares about her to an extent, and has helped save her on several occaisions. And the obvious things that are often mentioned—that Sandor sees in Sansa the innocence that he has long since lost, and is torn between trying to protect and destroy that innocence—are no doubt true. But still, there is a very strong sexual attraction, that is mixed with a certain amount of anger and violence on Sandor’s part. Putting aside the fact that Sandor is in his late twenties and sansa is 12 (which you argue is pretty normal in terms of “male sexuality”), there is also the fact that Sansa is sexually inexperienced, naïve and sheltered for her age, passive, and not yet sexual (when Sandor first starts to hit on her.) She seems highly confused by Sandor’s attentions to her in ACoK, when he first starts looking her over, and telling her that she is becoming a woman, growing “teats,” etc. In contrast Sandor is a grown man, sexually experienced, and highly assertive, if not aggressive. Plus, Sansa in ACoK, Sansa is in a position of total helplessness, Sandor in one of power.

[Snow White]

Sandor will become the replacement for Lady, I think he saw his past in Sansa

as Joff had his knights beat her, this subconsciously awoke memories in the Hound,

and a natural instinct to protect the young Stark from the same (or similar) existence to his.

I like this. A hound for a Wolf.

I find it amusing that Sansa would try to burn her mattress to hide her first flowering from Joffery yet have romanticized memories of her terrifying encounter with Sandor.

Chicks dig scars.

That would be an awesome scene for the fifth book; Elder Brother and other monks sitting around in a circle, braiding their tonsures...

Braiding their tonsures?

And this is in the edited version. In the uncut remake of this chapter, Sandor goes on and on in almost sexual detail about all the horrible things that Cersei should do to Tyrion. It's rather grotesque, really. ;D

Where can I find the unedited version?

[moonjump05]

However, as it stands, we also have the Blackwater scene, which is not so easy to write off.

Where he chatted her up a bit and ran off crying when she rejected him? Did he go to the room to rape her? Maybe. Could he have? Yes. Did he? No. Sure it's sexually charged and the intention could very well have been there- but he didn't, so that crime can't be laid at his feet. Otherwise Tyrion would have it, Tywin for encouraging Tyrion to do it, Joffrey for wanting to do it, Marillion for trying to do it, and don't doubt LF is getting there as well.

As for Sandor’s “intentions” towards Sansa, I don’t think it is so simple. He obviously cares about her to an extent, and has helped save her on several occaisions. And the obvious things that are often mentioned—that Sandor sees in Sansa the innocence that he has long since lost, and is torn between trying to protect and destroy that innocence—are no doubt true. But still, there is a very strong sexual attraction, that is mixed with a certain amount of anger and violence on Sandor’s part. Putting aside the fact that Sandor is in his late twenties and sansa is 12 (which you argue is pretty normal in terms of “male sexuality”), there is also the fact that Sansa is sexually inexperienced, naïve and sheltered for her age, passive, and not yet sexual (when Sandor first starts to hit on her.) She seems highly confused by Sandor’s attentions to her in ACoK, when he first starts looking her over, and telling her that she is becoming a woman, growing “teats,” etc. In contrast Sandor is a grown man, sexually experienced, and highly assertive, if not aggressive. Plus, Sansa in ACoK, Sansa is in a position of total helplessness, Sandor in one of power.

I agree with most of this except the last line, unless you mean physical power(and that only when the political powers wouldn't know, care, or let him, and then that would apply to just about every person in the series. Sandor isn't keeping Sansa hostage- the Lannisters are. Sandor and Sansa have conversations pretty much between equals.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I find san-san somewhat creepy.

I also understand it to some extent (see other's comments on the byronic hero etc).

However, please everyone keep in mind, that GRRM is all about inverting common tropes. Sandor Clegane is a perfect example of this. We all KNOW what a scarred troubled-past knight is supposed to be in a story - however, what would that person be like in real life? Hey, maybe they would run children down with their war-horses and actually want to rape 13 year old maidens under their protection.

Many fans of the hound seem to want to pound his square peg into the round shaped hole of the troubled-scarred-but-basically-good hero saved by the love of a beautiful maiden. He's not. He has a troubled past, but has survived it, and that has led to him being extremely morally ambiguous at best and at worst a monster.

I'll contrast Sam. A lot of people hate Sam because he's not Rhaegar Targaryn. That is, people want Sam to be bookish and smart, and dislike fighting BUT LATER gain courage when it counts and come back to show his dad that he really has the courage of a lion and wants to fight now. This common trope is inverted because Sam actually is afraid of battle and fighting and he always will be, and he still despite being through combat, still has no desire to take up a sword (even though he does from time to time out of necessity, he always hates it).

[Nukelavee]

Mydog said:

Many fans of the hound seem to want to pound his square peg into the round shaped hole of the troubled-scarred-but-basically-good hero saved by the love of a beautiful maiden.

heh. i need more coffee. i read this as "the hound wants to pound his square peg into the maiden's round hole."

now that i've cleaned up the spat out coffee...

Sandor+ Sansa is a complicated plot line (go figure). as Dog said, Martin likes to skew things -take what you expect, and twist it. i suppose an arguement can be made for the romantic ending, but i think that simplifies the two characters too much, ie, it lessens what the relationship COULD be.

look at it this way - why is Sandor like he is? and what is he? he's a guard dog - savage, brutal, loyal and obedient to the master's voice. why? he grew up with a monster, but he's also a deadly man in his own right. he's a second son, and so, off to be a man at arms. he's also a victim, with deep deep issues and fears.

the reason he ISN'T a "good" man, is because, he's been taught by life (and observation), that only the strong survive and prosper, and that "love" is a weakness, and Sandor is NEVER going to be the victim again.

and, like many dogs, Sandor respects only strength. which explains his contempt of Joff -he obeys him because, at the base, he's really Tywin's man.

so, personally, i see his "relationship" with Sansa as this - he recognizes a victim, without his strengths. he feels a certain empathy for her, but contempt for her weakness, her inability to admit how the world really is.

i also think he has a certain amount of respect for her ability to survive, and her bravery in being able to even look at him/interact with him at all. the romance? i dunno - it might just be the attempt to quantify what he feels for her. ie, it must be lust/"love", because clearly, what else could it be? (he doesn't recognize his empathy for what it is, so it must relate to how he see's all women)

i see this as leading to, not romance, but a kind of friendship, possibly, later in the story. in short, based upon geography, he isn't that far from Sansa...and Littlefinger has those hankerins.

ie - i could, possibly, see him as a protector of members of house Stark at some point.

[Valmy]

His much vaunted “love” of her was simply love for her body and the idea of love itself.

Well I guess I would question the point of having Shae in the story in the first place. I think it is more likely that we are supposed to see Tyrion wanting to be loved and acting out his issues with Tysha more than GRRM making some sort of statement about how Westeros feels about prostitutes (which would be pretty pointless given that Westeros is not a real place). After all Tyrion makes a point of not only being monogamous with Shae himself but also contracting her to be so with him which I highly doubt is typically of how people regard usual behavior with prostitutes. She is the fantasy of him having a wife who loves him. The whole thing was just creepy frankly, him simply loving her body would at least have been within the expected relationship prostitutes and those who hire them are supposed to have. I hope we are done with the whole 'Tyrion and his whores' thing moving forward.

But um is the Shae-Tyrion relationship really vaunted by anybody? Ewwwww.

[Valmy]

My basic question to San-San shippers is how exactly do they see this thing working going forward? Sandor is either literally dead or spiritually dead. That is kind of a non-starter.

[Hamster of Doom]

My basic question to San-San shippers is how exactly do they see this thing working going forward? Sandor is either literally dead or spiritually dead. That is kind of a non-starter.

Yes, and let's not forget that he's a deserter (both as a sworn sword to the Lannisters and as a member of the Kingsguard) - so if he ever shows himself in public again the Lannisters (or whoever claims to be the rightful king) could well demand his head, or at the very least send him to the Wall.

[nevermore]

I find san-san somewhat creepy.

I also understand it to some extent (see other's comments on the byronic hero etc).

However, please everyone keep in mind, that GRRM is all about inverting common tropes. Sandor Clegane is a perfect example of this. We all KNOW what a scarred troubled-past knight is supposed to be in a story - however, what would that person be like in real life? Hey, maybe they would run children down with their war-horses and actually want to rape 13 year old maidens under their protection.

Many fans of the hound seem to want to pound his square peg into the round shaped hole of the troubled-scarred-but-basically-good hero saved by the love of a beautiful maiden. He's not. He has a troubled past, but has survived it, and that has led to him being extremely morally ambiguous at best and at worst a monster.

and he has, he is potentially a killer of a kid Mycah and laughs about it. Apparently some people thinks he was about to rape Sansa. Besides he isn't a scarred trouble-past knight ;), but also you can't expect every Martin character to break the mould, it's impossible, some of his characters (Jon and Dany) do show typical archetypes.

[moonjump05]

However, please everyone keep in mind, that GRRM is all about inverting common tropes. Sandor Clegane is a perfect example of this. We all KNOW what a scarred troubled-past knight is supposed to be in a story - however, what would that person be like in real life? Hey, maybe they would run children down with their war-horses and actually want to rape 13 year old maidens under their protection.

Many fans of the hound seem to want to pound his square peg into the round shaped hole of the troubled-scarred-but-basically-good hero saved by the love of a beautiful maiden. He's not. He has a troubled past, but has survived it, and that has led to him being extremely morally ambiguous at best and at worst a monster.

GRRM inverts some tropes, he also lampshades, averts, subverts, and plays them straight. It's too broad a generalization to say he is all about inverting tropes. Sandor does show qualities associated with an antihero and even (if the gravedigger theory is correct) could be showing signs of a typical hero's journey.

He is morally ambiguous, but written sympathetically and that shows a certain amount of authorial intention as to how we the readers are supposed to view the character.

My basic question to San-San shippers is how exactly do they see this thing working going forward? Sandor is either literally dead or spiritually dead. That is kind of a non-starter.

Well, he could be dead. But how would he be spiritually dead? If the Elder Brother or Septon Meribald are anything to go by- finding peace is not the equivalent of losing what makes you you. Actually Sandor needs a vacation- the guy is too angry all the time, he needs to loosen up ^_^

Yes, and let's not forget that he's a deserter (both as a sworn sword to the Lannisters and as a member of the Kingsguard) - so if he ever shows himself in public again the Lannisters (or whoever claims to be the rightful king) could well demand his head, or at the very least send him to the Wall.

The Lannisters would want his head- but they might not stay in power. The next rightful king could want him dead- or not. It all depends on the politics at the time. If hell is breaking loose in King's Landing, or the Others invade, or Dany crosses the sea or what have you, then Sandor would be rather low on anyone's list.

[Theano]

I have a sneaking suspicion that Sandor's past with and fear of fire is going to come back into play. Yes, he's burned so that he has a horrible disfigurement and can have a creepy quasi-romance (that some of us actually like, weird as we are...)--and then what? He goes off and lives happily ever after with Sansa? Granted, I can see her love of tales being subverted as 1) learning what damsel-in-distress-hood is really like, and 2) being rescued by someone who is totally not her vision of heroic "true knight," but learning something lovely and wonderful from the whole experience, and *gag*. (And yet I OTP on these two so badly. Go figure.)

It would be interesting to see him forced by the plot to overcome his fear of fire. It would be interesting to see him up in the North, fighting Others, with a certain flaming sword. It would be interesting to see him rescued by Darth Sansa, for an amusing change, after she learns all she can from her Sith master, and makes him fly. ("Little bird," mockingbird... things that make you go "Hmmm...") Things that would make me throw the book across the room, however, would include him being dead, him being shipped off to Redemption Island for the rest of the series, or him and Sansa with hearts, stars, and rainbows floating over their heads.

[Still not king]

though many here apparently disagree with me, I think that in that scene during Blackwater Sansa came a lot closer to being raped or murdered than anyone would like to admit. Sandor was extremely drunk and had nothing to lose. Sansa managed to appeal to his better nature by singing that song, however, what if she'd reacted differently? I could easily see the situation getting out of control somehow, and Sandor slitting his "little bird's" throat.

I agree with this, in that situation he was so unstable it could've gone both ways. I don't think even he knew why he went to her room. To save her, to rape and kill her, to roll up in her lap and sleep it off. Sandor is emotionally immature, just as she is. After being burned half to death, he's been doing what he had to do to survive, and the only way he knows is violence, being bigger and badder than the other guy. He hasn't moved on at all, he's trapped in his past and it isn't until he teams up with Arya that he gets a real chance to start working with any of his issues. Even then he does what he can to escape from thinking - drinking himself into a coma, chopping firewood til half the forest is gone and then falling asleep on his feet, you know, things like that. All the time chewing on his hatred like an old bone.

And then Sansa comes along and wakes some emotion in him that he doesn't know how to deal with. Of course it's lust, but he's got money and I'm sure you could find a pretty prostitute with auburn hair somewhere in KL. It's not love, he's too messed up to really love someone at that point, but whatever feeling it might be it's there and he's confused - pushing her away, growling at her when she tries to thank him and then crawling into her room to do...what? Approach, avoid. "I could kill you, right now...and if someone else tries to hurt you, I'll kill them." Here he sounds like an angry and frightened child, as if he's talking to the toy knight that belonged to Gregor. It's not just one thing happening in that scene, it's many, and the lines blur - the fires outside, Sansa that he's not allowed to touch, death all around and the smell of burning flesh. It's a complete breakdown and yeah, he could've killed her without even knowing what he did.

It's fascinating, really, the man's an effing trainwreck. Not trying to make a woobie out of him, but there are always reasons why people do what they do. Good thing he found a decent therapist on the QI.

Add me to the San/San shippers, by the way. If I wanted normal and boring I'd read another series. :P

[inkasrain]

I think my own fondness for Sansa and the Hound's relationship ("relationship" either in a romantic sense, or maybe just a protector/protect-ee arrangement) has a lot to do with what each contributes to the other's psychology and worldview. When they meet, Sansa's relationship with reality is spotty at best; it goes without saying that she is more-or-less blind to the cruelties of the world and the morally grey nature of the world she lives in. Clegane on the other hand, is the harshest of realists, with absolutely no space in his worldview for human kindness or innocence.

Through their interactions, each gain a piece of the other's understanding. Sansa comes to see that beauty by no means equates to goodness, that not all knights protect the innocent, and that kindness can come from the most unexpected source. Clegane finds just a sliver of potential for the "knight in shining armor" in himself.

Obviously, the relationship is more complicated than this, but I'm pretty sure this melding of opposites is a big part of why I so enjoy this wonderfully bizarre relationship.

[Myrish swan]

Myrish Swann i can't be bothered to argue about the hound, so i'll leave it up to you if you want to change your mind after reading this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byronic_hero

you are meant to feel empathy for the byrionic hero. But obviously if you dont, you dont.

Thanks for the link. For the record, I am aware of what a Byronic hero is—the concept pretty much pervades our culture. You’d be hard pressed to find an adult who wasn’t at least mildly familiar with the archtype. And I do like Sandor a lot; I’ve empathized with him on many occasions. I just don’t see that as reason enough to overlook his past misdeeds, or somewhat cloudy motives.

Where he chatted her up a bit and ran off crying when she rejected him?

Wow, “chatted her up,” is certainly an interesting description for an interaction that goes on between a man and a 12 year old girl he is holding at knifepoint. Allthough they did talk for a brief time before he grabbed her and held the knife to her throat, so that may be the little “chat session” you’re referring to.

As for Sandor “running off crying when Sansa rejected him,” that never happened. The scene was as follows—he shows up in her room, proceeds to grab her and hold a knife to her throat, she sings for him, and he lets her go and leaves in tears. Sansa never rejects him. She is confused and frightened throughout the encounter; moreover, she never really has the chance to reject him.

Did he go to the room to rape her? Maybe. Could he have? Yes. Did he? No. Sure it's sexually charged and the intention could very well have been there- but he didn't, so that crime can't be laid at his feet.

First, I think it’s pretty clear by his holding a knife to her throat that rape was at least one of the things on his mind. Secondly, I never, at any point, laid the crime of rape at Sandor’s feet. My assertion in my earlier post was simply that the comment of an earlier poster that “Sandor would have never raped Sansa,” seemed like wishful thinking. I never denied that Sandor was drunk and confused and that his intentions towards Sansa in this scene were quite mixed (before he holds the knife to her throat, at one point he offers to take her away from Kings Landing and protect her.) But that does not change the fact that rape was one of Sandor’s ideas, and that if Sansa had reacted differently, (trying to scream, run away, or fight Sandor off) then Sansa may have ended up dead, injured, or raped.

it's sexually charged and the intention could very well have been there- but he didn't, so that crime can't be laid at his feet. Otherwise Tyrion would have it, Tywin for encouraging Tyrion to do it, Joffrey for wanting to do it, Marillion for trying to do it, and don't doubt LF is getting there as well.

As far as this goes, I don’t think the men listed above are all guilty of raping Sansa. However, their actions towards her definitely say something about them—that is, Joff’s desire to rape Sansa shows that he is a cruel sadist; Tywin’s encouragement of Tyrion to force Sansa if she was unwilling shows the former as a cold, ruthless man; Marillion’s attempt to force her shows him as an outwardly charming but nasty creep, etc. And as for Tyrion, he does noT consider raping Sansa at any point.

[Myrish swan]

I agree with most of this except the last line, unless you mean physical power(and that only when the political powers wouldn't know, care, or let him, and then that would apply to just about every person in the series. Sandor isn't keeping Sansa hostage- the Lannisters are. Sandor and Sansa have conversations pretty much between equals.

I disagree. The Hound himself may not be the one holding Sansa hostage, but the power balance is still pretty skewed. She is a hostage of the Lanister's, while he is captain of Joff's kingsguard. A word from Joffrey is all Sandor would have needed to have been able to rape Sansa. The fact that Sandor never really used this power is beside the point; the point is that it was there. Compare this to Sandor and Sansa's positions during their first interaction in AGoT-- Sansa has more power there; though Sandor is stronger physically than her, she has the immediate protection of her father, the hand of the king. Thus, with his advantage in physical strength, and her higher position, they are much closer to being equals in AGoT.

But um is the Shae-Tyrion relationship really vaunted by anybody? Ewwwww.

No, but Tyrion's "love" for Shae sure is. In numerous threads I've seen other posters mentioning how they cheered for Shae's death. In their eyes Tyrion's murder of Shae was not just "fun," but 100 percent justified. Their reasoning is that Tyrion "loved," Shae, "gave her everything," and she betrayed and humiliated him.

[moonjump05]

Wow, “chatted her up,” is certainly an interesting description for an interaction that goes on between a man and a 12 year old girl he is holding at knifepoint. Allthough they did talk for a brief time before he grabbed her and held the knife to her throat, so that may be the little “chat session” you’re referring to.

As for Sandor “running off crying when Sansa rejected him,” that never happened. The scene was as follows—he shows up in her room, proceeds to grab her and hold a knife to her throat, she sings for him, and he lets her go and leaves in tears. Sansa never rejects him. She is confused and frightened throughout the encounter; moreover, she never really has the chance to reject him.

Yeah I meant the whole 'I'll take you away and kill whoever hurts you', which is actually a bit tamer than the scene on the rooftop. As for Sansa rejecting him- she doesn't leave with him, she won't look at his face(which is a big thing for Sandor as he make quite a few remarks on that count over two books), and she closes her eyes when he pulls her closer. These all sound like rejections to me.

First, I think it’s pretty clear by his holding a knife to her throat that rape was at least one of the things on his mind. Secondly, I never, at any point, laid the crime of rape at Sandor’s feet. My assertion in my earlier post was simply that the comment of an earlier poster that “Sandor would have never raped Sansa,” seemed like wishful thinking. I never denied that Sandor was drunk and confused and that his intentions towards Sansa in this scene were quite mixed (before he holds the knife to her throat, at one point he offers to take her away from Kings Landing and protect her.) But that does not change the fact that rape was one of Sandor’s ideas, and that if Sansa had reacted differently, (trying to scream, run away, or fight Sandor off) then Sansa may have ended up dead, injured, or raped.

As far as this goes, I don’t think the men listed above are all guilty of raping Sansa. However, their actions towards her definitely say something about them—that is, Joff’s desire to rape Sansa shows that he is a cruel sadist; Tywin’s encouragement of Tyrion to force Sansa if she was unwilling shows the former as a cold, ruthless man; Marillion’s attempt to force her shows him as an outwardly charming but nasty creep, etc. And as for Tyrion, he does noT consider raping Sansa at any point.

Tyrion does consider consummating the marriage, which would have been rape.

I disagree. The Hound himself may not be the one holding Sansa hostage, but the power balance is still pretty skewed. She is a hostage of the Lanister's, while he is captain of Joff's kingsguard. A word from Joffrey is all Sandor would have needed to have been able to rape Sansa. The fact that Sandor never really used this power is beside the point; the point is that it was there. Compare this to Sandor and Sansa's positions during their first interaction in AGoT-- Sansa has more power there; though Sandor is stronger physically than her, she has the immediate protection of her father, the hand of the king. Thus, with his advantage in physical strength, and her higher position, they are much closer to being equals in AGoT.

Sandor isn't commander of Joff's Kingsguard, Jaime is. Sandor is not even a knight, a second son from a very minor bannerhouse of the Lannisters- he doesn't have the clout to do much of anything unless he is threatening with a sword. Sandor is also rather expendable compared to Sansa, she's a valuable hostage and was treated as such with the exception of Joffrey, and the first daughter of a major house. The only ones capable of holding her in a position of helplessness are the Lannisters.

Also, a word from Joffrey is law. If Joffrey told anyone to rape Sansa they could(although I think at that point even Boros would have gone to Cersei)- especially when Tyrion and Jaime weren't around, they already beat her on his orders(although I don't ever remember a time when someone was beating her not on express orders?) It seems a weak suggestion that Sandor was waiting around for Joff to order him to rape her considering only him and Arys ever spoke out against the beatings.

[Gravedigger]

I do like Sandor a lot; I’ve empathized with him on many occasions. I just don’t see that as reason enough to overlook his past misdeeds, or somewhat cloudy motives.

Sandor's 'misdeeds'... You're applying a simplified morality to Martin's world which belittles it. Sandor is brutal, but he is interesting because he is honest about that brutality. He exposes the hypocrisy of knighthood: the chivalric code disguises the deaths they leave littered in their glorious path through life and into songs and tales.

And rape is always on the agenda in this world between men & women, from the wall throughout Westeros to wherever Dany is dawdling about. Everywhere. I'm a feminist and acknowledging that this is a cultural aspect of Martin's fictional world is not the same as advocating it. Yes, there was a potential fear that Sandor might rape Sansa, but he does not. This choice is surprising because it contravenes what we have come to expect. It suggests a complexity which would have been negated if he had done that terrible thing. Martin did not write that Sandor raped Sansa, so he did not. And we do not know what he was thinking, because Martin has not written that either.

Sandor's purported regret that he did not 'fuck her bloody', is a threat to Arya as much as anything. His choice not to rape Sansa represents a threat to the brutal self-image he has. I do not deny that Sandor wants to fuck Sansa, but he chooses not to do so against her will. Sandor's comment suggests that he is as perplexed by that decision as some readers are discomfited.

Sandor is complicated; he is a killer; he is not 'good' (and I use this ludicrous term most reluctantly); he is honest and hates hypocrisy; he is protective of Sansa; he is attracted to Sansa; he is not a rapist; he does not exist beyond what is written in the text.

[undertow]

I doubt GRRM would take that route. If Sandor shows up again (and I think he will), I think he will just show up in someone's POV chapter, possibly even Sansa's. I don't think we'll have another long tedious search on our hands.

...

The bottom line is, I'm not sure what the point of GRRM's revealing Sandor halfway through AFFC would be, if he no longer had a use for him. He knows Sandor is popular, that would just be pointless to the plot and mean to the fans to write him in and then be like "oh psych! I know I slyly showed you guys that one of your favorites is alive and all, but I have no plans for him to be in the rest of the story at all. muahahaha." And before you think, "yeah but he killed Ned and Robb!" - That actually served a plot purpose. I don't see what the point would be in bringing Sandor back to life, so to speak, only to have him remain irrelevant to the rest of the series.

There are two possible ways that Sandor can return: either he is the church's champion to fight Frankengregor, or he pledges his sword to Sansa after he hears about her wedding with Harry the Heir. I think the second option is the most likely, as it gives Sansa a small power base. If she has a henchmen who is loyal to her, not to the Vale or Littlefinger or Harry, she can have a co-conspirator for killing Littlefinger. Again, swearing his sword to Sansa would give Sandor the option of fighting Gregor in battle, which was one of his reasons for trying to join up with the Starks. So Sandor gets what he wants, Sansa gets what she needs, and there's also the possibility for GRRM to have a 'history repeats itself' type of epilogue.