3 Eyed Crow

[The Mance]

I think Bloodraven is Coldhands, and has somehow survived being turned into a wight with his normal consciousness intact, either by his own sorecerous abilities, or through the intervention of the 3EC....

....I think the 3EC is some last surviving Greenseer of the Children of the Forest.

The only thing about this that sticks for me is that while Bloodraven could definitely be Coldhands (warging, ravens in the weirwood, etc), I really think that the 3EC has to have some association with the Nights Watch, else why be a crow? Its too ubiquitous a reference among the wildlings and the culture north of The Wall for the name to be unrelated.

OTOH I'm not sure that Bloodraven's mystique has impressed me enough yet to credit him with the power and as far reaching an influence as we've seen from the 3EC. For now, though, my presumption is that Bloodraven = 3EC, and Coldhands, the elk and the flock of ravens (even Mormont's raven) are all being warged/controlled by the 3EC to some extent. I'm not fixed on Coldhand's identity yet. He could be some random black brother, or he could be Benjen. Though the only reason for him to be Benjen would be to tie that loose end up in some way.

[Prince of the North]

I think you're right that Bloodraven is the Three-Eyed Crow. I've felt that to be the case for a long time. I disagree with you that he may not be powerful enough. There is ample evidence that he could (imo). It's just very subtly presented in myriad places. I think Benjen Stark is Coldhands but he's not a wight that has somehow been turned "good" again. I believe he was resurrected by the TEC in much the same way as Beric Donderrion and Lady Stoneheart were resurrected. Remember, Bloodraven was rumored to be a sorceror ;)

[Lady Winter Rose]

The only thing about this that sticks for me is that while Bloodraven could definitely be Coldhands (warging, ravens in the weirwood, etc), I really think that the 3EC has to have some association with the Nights Watch, else why be a crow? Its too ubiquitous a reference among the wildlings and the culture north of The Wall for the name to be unrelated.

Maybe Others and 3EC are active for so long time (Others kill NW-ers and 3EC rescue them) that Wildling call NW-ers after 3EC. It never seems logic to call NW-ers crows if that has nothing personal or insulting to Wildings.

[Lady Winter Rose]

oh,:) double post. Error in my communication system:).

[The Mance]

I've felt that to be the case for a long time. I disagree with you that he may not be powerful enough. There is ample evidence that he could (imo). It's just very subtly presented in myriad places.

Well, as I said, I'm not convinced yet. For BR to be the 3EC means that he is a powerful enough warg to control Coldhands, an elk, and an entire flock of ravens* all at the same time. Thats quite a bit more than we've seen any other warg do. It also means that he's able to project his power past the wall, into Bran and Jojen's dreams, something that seems to be impossible for the other wargs we've seen.

*

And we've heard in the aDWD prologue that birds and elk are notoriously difficult to control.

I think Benjen Stark is Coldhands but he's not a wight that has somehow been turned "good" again. I believe he was resurrected by the TEC in much the same way as Beric Donderrion and Lady Stoneheart were resurrected. Remember, Bloodraven was rumored to be a sorceror ;)

Without getting too hung up on the "blue eyes of a wight" debate again ( because I don't think how he came back to "life" is as important as what the being's motivation is now) I'll just say that i don't think GRRM would have told us specifically about his "wightlike" characteristics if he wasn't some type of wight, specifically.

Maybe Others and 3EC are active for so long time (Others kill NW-ers and 3EC rescue them) that Wildling call NW-ers after 3EC. It never seems logic to call NW-ers crows if that has nothing personal or insulting to Wildings.

I'm open to an explanation, but I don't think this is it. Why would the wildlings turn the fact that the NWers are getting saved by the 3EC into an insult? And if the Others are out kicking NW ass, wouldn't the wildlings be in need of rescuing as well? The Others don't seem to discriminate between humans at all.

[Prince of the North]

Well, as I said, I'm not convinced yet. For BR to be the 3EC means that he is a powerful enough warg to control Coldhands, an elk, and an entire flock of ravens* all at the same time. Thats quite a bit more than we've seen any other warg do. It also means that he's able to project his power past the wall, into Bran and Jojen's dreams, something that seems to be impossible for the other wargs we've seen.

WARNING! Do not read this if you avoid spoilers. This spoiler concerns various places where I think evidence can be found regarding the above.

I believe Bloodraven is now "bodiless" and only lives in the creature or creatures he is warging. This is how he has "lived" so long. Doing something like this is described in the upcoming prologue chapter for ADWD about Varamyr Sixskins along with the fact that we are introduced to Varamyr (who is called "sixskins" because he has six animal wargs) and told about other wildlings that are powerful enough to warg multiple animals, etc. Also, we have rumors and descriptions concerning Bloodraven's sorcery, etc. in ASoIaF and in the short stories about Dunk and Egg. In the most recent, The Mystery Knight, we get a hint of some of Bloodraven's power. He undoubtedly would have learned even more since the time that particular story takes place.

Without getting too hung up on the "blue eyes of a wight" debate again ( because I don't think how he came back to "life" is as important as what the being's motivation is now) I'll just say that i don't think GRRM would have told us specifically about his "wightlike" characteristics if he wasn't some type of wight, specifically.

Yes, let's please not bring that up again! :D I believe Sam basically told us that Coldhands is not a wight with his eyes comment and that's where it ends for me. I assume you are talking about Coldhands' pale skin and black hands as being "wightlike". I don't think we have to look any further than Donderrion and Stoneheart for an explanation of this. Both Donderrion and Stoneheart show some physical effects of what happened to them when they were killed/dead even after they are resurrected. Coldhands is much the same. Bodies turn pale when they are dead and the extremeties of a dead body would begin to freeze and turn black very quickly in the North. These physical changes started to happen to Coldhands after he was killed (I still think he's Benjen) and he still shows them after he was resurrected. I think he was resurrected in much the same way as Donderrion and Stoneheart because he seems autonomous (the wights we've seen do not). I believe TEC did this because he needed an ally/assistant to protect the kids and bring them...somewhere. Coldhands says as much himself. He told the kids he would bring them to TEC. Why would he refer to himself in the third person if he is TEC?

[The Mance]

other wildlings that are powerful enough to warg multiple animals

I don't recall if we hear about multiples at one time though.

He told the kids he would bring them to TEC. Why would he refer to himself in the third person if he is TEC?

Expedience, maybe. Not wanting to freak them out too much by trying to explain that he's actually the disembodied consciousness of a man long dead presently inhabiting the body of some other long dead individual. I dunno. Maybe he just got tired of keeping track of all the variously appropriate grammatical pronouns over the years and now just uses 3rd person as a reasonable default.

[mikeym]

This seems to have gone quite off topic.

On the point of being unable to Warg past the wall. If the 3 Eyed Crow is literally Mormont's Raven then this is not an issue as it is based south off the wall but presumably can fly over it whenever it fancies. (Mormont doesn't seem to cage it or put it on a leash, though it is normally with him.)

[Lady Winter Rose]

I'm open to an explanation, but I don't think this is it. Why would the wildlings turn the fact that the NWers are getting saved by the 3EC into an insult? And if the Others are out kicking NW ass, wouldn't the wildlings be in need of rescuing as well? The Others don't seem to discriminate between humans at all.

Osha once tell Bran that she doesn't want to met 3EC, but nothing else. 3EC also visit Bran in his dreams and act very violent. It could be that it is evil. But that says my brain not my heart. I hope it is good creature and dreams just dreams.

[Sir Tobi]

I believe Bloodraven is

now in his second live as

the Lord Commanders Raven and thus helping the NW, but nothing more.

So no connection to the 3EC or Coldhands. The timeframe would fit and Bloodraven is a much to kewl charakter.

Notorious cool charakters, like Oberyn, Silvio Forel and Jaquen H'Gar tend to make only short apperances with not so huge impacts, while crippled dwarfes have to save the wourld.

One of the mayor key distinctions to other fantasy series.

The 3EC is the last greenseer, rescued Benjen Stark and turned him into Coldhands. Simple as that.

[mikeym]

Ah, but you are forgetting the 3EC and Mormont's Raven's shared penchant for corn!

[The Mance]

If the 3 Eyed Crow is literally Mormont's Raven then this is not an issue as it is based south off the wall but presumably can fly over it whenever it fancies.

If the 3EC was literally Mormont's Raven then Bran and co. would not have had to pass under the Wall or meet up with Coldhands so he could "take them to the 3EC". They could have just gone straight to Castle Black or, for that matter, just stayed put at Winterfel while the raven came to them. It could be that in order for the 3EC to speak to Bran or Jojen through greendreams it must first warg into M'sR, which might have to involve it flying north of the Wall. This could explain the corn reference as well, as that might be an example of the actual bird's personality showing through. But I get the sense that the 3EC is powerful enough, or of such similar magical origins, that the Wall is not really an obstacle.

This seems to have gone quite off topic.

Several people have acknowledged that it's likely MR may be one of the 3EC's avatars. I think thats all you're likely to get.

I believe Bloodraven is the Lord Commanders Raven and thus helping the NW, but nothing more.

This doesn't address the obvious symbolism of the hundreds of raven in the weirwood tree when we first meet Coldhands. I think thats a pretty obvious indication that Bloodraven has to either be the 3EC, or a powerful warg acting autonomously as Coldhands.

[Sir Tobi]

.. and Ilyrio and Silvio Forel both say "just so", so they have to be the same person.

[Prince of the North]

I don't recall if we hear about multiples at one time though.

Yeah, I don't recall hearing about warging multiple animals, etc. at one time but Varamyr has six different animals that he routinely wargs. All at the same time? I don't know but he somehow keeps them around even when not warged with them. Maybe they have some sort of warg-bond that forms? Also, maybe the saying about Bloodraven having "a thousand eyes and one" has it's roots in something real? He was said to be a great spymaster. Maybe that's due to being able to warg animals and spy that way? Furthermore, remember, Brynden Rivers or Bloodraven is a Targaryen on his father's side and a Blackwood on his mother's side. The Targs have their heritage from Valyria where sorcery was big while the Blackwoods are Northmen where things like green magic and warging exist. So it's not implausible that Bloodraven could have exposure to both and opportunity to learn about them. Bloodraven also used a weirwood bow and made some pretty fantastic shots. Maybe he was using some magic as well, eh? Have you read the Dunk and Egg short stories? Much backstory on Bloodraven is provided in them. I legitimately wonder why?

Expedience, maybe. Not wanting to freak them out too much by trying to explain that he's actually the disembodied consciousness of a man long dead presently inhabiting the body of some other long dead individual. I dunno. Maybe he just got tired of keeping track of all the variously appropriate grammatical pronouns over the years and now just uses 3rd person as a reasonable default.

Are you saying that Coldhands didn't mind freaking the kids out by looking like a walking dead guy and showing up riding an elk with a flock of ravens riding shotgun but he would draw the line at telling them that he's actually TEC? :D Nah, he's not the TEC but the TEC is helping/watching him (imo).

[mikeym]

Just so. :)

[Sir Tobi]

This doesn't address the obvious symbolism of the hundreds of raven in the weirwood tree when we first meet Coldhands. I think thats a pretty obvious indication that Bloodraven has to either be the 3EC, or a powerful warg acting autonomously as Coldhands.

We know that the greenseers were able to controle crowds of animals. They weren't a mere Symbol in this scene, they were used as weapons against the wights.

Its not simple warging, but an animal control thing. In normal warging he wouldn't send the ravens on Hitchcock like suiside missions.

[Prince of the North]

We know that the greenseers were able to controle crowds of animals. They weren't a mere Symbol in this scene, they were used as weapons against the wights.

Its not simple warging, but an animal control thing. In normal warging he wouldn't send the ravens on Hitchcock like suiside missions.

Um, I think at least part of the symbolism being referred to is the fact that Bloodraven is a Blackwood on his mother's side. The Blackwood sigil is a weirwood tree with a flock of ravens in it. Seems eerily familiar, no? ;)

ETA: I can't remember where we found out that Greenseers could control groups of animals. Can you refresh my memory on that?

[Sir Tobi]

Um, I think at least part of the symbolism being referred to is the fact that Bloodraven is a Blackwood on his mother's side. The Blackwood sigil is a weirwood tree with a flock of ravens in it. Seems eerily familiar, no? ;)

Yes. When Sam comes to the Isle of Ravens in Oldtown there is a godswood full of Ravens on weirwood trees. So Bloodraven lives in the white (weirwood) ravens of Oldtown.

Just so.

Why, by old gods and new, would Bloodraven use his mothers coat of arms to announce himself to Sam the slayer?

Just for the reader to make the Bloodraven connection?

ETA: I can't remember where we found out that Greenseers could control groups of animals. Can you refresh my memory on that?

Not from memory. Perhaps someone else could help me out. I think it was something Osha or Jojen or even Maester Luvin said in Winterfell.

[The Mance]

Are you saying that Coldhands didn't mind freaking the kids out by looking like a walking dead guy and showing up riding an elk with a flock of ravens riding shotgun but he would draw the line at telling them that he's actually TEC?

Heh. I suppose not. I do think it's reasonable that actual identity gets blurry for consciousness that spend lots of time in many different heads, though.

Why, by old gods and new, would Bloodraven use his mothers coat of arms to announce himself to Sam the slayer?

Just for the reader to make the Bloodraven connection?

Yes.

[Prince of the North]

Yes. When Sam comes to the Isle of Ravens in Oldtown there is a godswood full of Ravens on weirwood trees. So Bloodraven lives in the white (weirwood) ravens of Oldtown.

Just so.

Why, by old gods and new, would Bloodraven use his mothers coat of arms to announce himself to Sam the slayer?

Just for the reader to make the Bloodraven connection?

Don't get me wrong, I do love a good bit o' silliness :thumbsup: but, in actuality, when the kids first meet Coldhands there actually is a weirwood full of ravens that cover their escape from the wights. It isn't supposed to mean anything to the kids, of course, but I believe it is a hint from the author to the readers. Just my opinion, of course, but it seems to me that Martin rarely comes right out and reveals the truth. He often makes we readers "triangulate" in on what's actually going on or what really happened. I don't believe the TEC is Coldhands but I do think Coldhands is an ally/assistant to the TEC. I think the TEC wants Coldhands to bring the kids somewhere. I don't think the TEC really needs them brought to him because he is already keeping an eye on them through warging, etc. so I think it has to, at least partially, be about a place. Just where the place is or for what purpose I have no idea...yet ;)