3 Eyed Crow

[Guest Other-in-Law]

On the point of being unable to Warg past the wall. If the 3 Eyed Crow is literally Mormont's Raven then this is not an issue as it is based south off the wall but presumably can fly over it whenever it fancies. (Mormont doesn't seem to cage it or put it on a leash, though it is normally with him.)

Jon was unable to sense Ghost through the Wall, but Jon is not a very powerful warg. Bran on the other hand, was able to contact Jon through the Wall, when Bran was hiding in the crypts and Jon was in the Frostfangs.

[mikeym]

Jon was unable to sense Ghost through the Wall, but Jon is not a very powerful warg. Bran on the other hand, was able to contact Jon through the Wall, when Bran was hiding in the crypts and Jon was in the Frostfangs.

Good point, but I thought that might have something to do with Bran using the Weirwood network.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

Good point, but I thought that might have something to do with Bran using the Weirwood network.

Very possibly. And Bran is already something more than a warg, I think, but the 3EC is doubtless greater yet so, it can also bypass the Wall (and already did, for Bran's dreams, and Jojen's, too).

[Lady Winter Rose]

I noticed one part in one book. It was Bran chapter when he ask Osha about 3EC and I have not exact quote:

[Osha, is there Others, CotF... and 3EC?

I see Others, hear about CotF, but 3EC...I don't want to met her. Why do you ask?]

That doesn't sound too much as good creature.

[weezul]

We know that Coldhands appears in every way a wight except that his eyes don't glow blue. So the simplest explanation is that Coldhands is some brother of the night's watch who was turned into a wight & controlled by Other Sam killed. Coldhands then regained his freewill when Sam killed his Other.

Coldhands might be the wight of Benjen Stark simply for character continuity, but this isn't strictly necessary. As noted, if Sam took Bran all the way to Coldhands, then Sam never said Bran recognized Coldhands.. well Sam likely just waited in the doorway, rather than open the scary thing a third time. Or maybe all Benjen Stark's team was turned into wights by the same Other, making all free now and all working for Benjen Stark's wight.

If there are very few Coldhands, like only Benjen Stark, then perhaps he was killed while warged away, and then retook the wight body from the Other ether by force, maybe with the 3EC's help, or after Sam killed the Other.

In any case, the powerful wildling warg states flat out that being killed while warged traps part of you consciousness in the animal, and even mixes you with the next warg to use that animal. It's thus unsurprising if Bloodraven has survived his own death in animal form. We know that Bloodraven was an exceptionally strong warg, so maybe he survived more completely by remaining warged into multiple animals and rewarging himself on into others. So yeah Bloodraven is likely the 3EC.

I'd imagine that Coldhand isn't part of the 3EC super-warg but merely some more recent collaborator. It's always possible that Bloodraven was killed by an Other but regained control because his consciousness was elsewhere, but we're told the Night's Watch saw no evidence of Others during Bloodraven's lifetime, and Ygritte indicated that Mace released all the Others while looking for the horn.

[weezul]

I believe Sam basically told us that Coldhands is not a wight with his eyes comment and that's where it ends for me.

Sam says he's very much wight-like. Sam merely says he doesn't have the blue eyes of the Others. Doesn't that says he's a wight but just not controlled by an Other?

There are thee readily apparent ways of surviving death in ASoFaI, well excluding the Ironmen's CPR.

You can be reanimated by fire magic which is described as consuming. We may exclude fire reanimation for coldhands because presumably consuming fire magic would not give you cold hands.

You can be killed while your warged. We've only explicitly seen another warg take a dead warg into their own consciousness, but powerful wargs can likely do more. There is however no indication that warging can reanimate dead flesh.

Wights are themselves reanimated beings who remember their previous lives, although they now do the Others bidding. Why not a wight who isn't controlled by the Others? Warging abilities might let your consciousness survive death to fight the Other for control. Killing the Other might remove the control. etc.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

We know that Coldhands appears in every way a wight except that his eyes don't glow blue. So the simplest explanation is that Coldhands is some brother of the night's watch who was turned into a wight & controlled by Other Sam killed. Coldhands then regained his freewill when Sam killed his Other.

"Simplest"? Quite the opposite. It assumes a lot of things that haven't been proven yet. We don't know that wights are being warged into by the Others (although that's a popular theory); we don't know that killing an Other will sever their connection with the wight and leave them alive; we don't know that an Other is associated with one specific wight.

It's always possible that Bloodraven was killed by an Other but regained control because his consciousness was elsewhere, but we're told the Night's Watch saw no evidence of Others during Bloodraven's lifetime...

Not necessarily. We can be reasonably sure that the Night's Watch in general wasn't aware of Other activity, but that doesn't mean that there wouldn't have been evidence that was misinterpreted, or that there weren't some folks who did believe that the Others were active.

...and Ygritte indicated that Mace released all the Others while looking for the horn.

Untrue. Ygritte indicated that Mace released vengeful ghosts into the world, much like Ned believes that the rusted-away swords in the Winterfell crypts may have released the ghosts of dead Stark kings to wander freely through Winterfell. (Ghosts, being incorporeal, are not Others, which are very much corporeal.)

The theory that Mance released the Others while looking for the Horn runs into the problem that Mance was only looking for the Horn in order to flee from the Others. If the Others weren't out and about already, then Mance has nothing to flee from.

[weezul]

"Simplest"? Quite the opposite. It assumes a lot of things that haven't been proven yet. We don't know that wights are being warged into by the Others (although that's a popular theory); we don't know that killing an Other will sever their connection with the wight and leave them alive; we don't know that an Other is associated with one specific wight.

We know the wights are controlled by the Others, well otherwise riderless animals wouldn't attack in unison. We're told the wights retain some memories of their previous lives. We know that Coldhands resembles a wight in every way except for the eyes, meaning the glowing eyes are different from merely being a wight.

Yeah, I'd say the the simplest explanation is : If a wight isn't controlled, their eye's stop glowing like an Other's do, and they return to their previous personality.

How do you free a wight from control? I donno, maybe you need some uber-warg like 3EC is or Bran will become to fight off the control. I think however that simply killing the wight giving the orders will suffice for several reasons : We're not exactly treated to oodles of evidence that the different magical domains are compatible, which seems necessary otherwise. In particular, there are no other over similarities between an Other's control and warging, well Others clearly control vast numbers for example. Also, Sam gets circumstantial glory heaped upon himself frequently. <shrug>

The theory that Mance released the Others while looking for the Horn runs into the problem that Mance was only looking for the Horn in order to flee from the Others. If the Others weren't out and about already, then Mance has nothing to flee from.

Ahh, I missed Mance making that statement. I'd basically assumed that, well I preferred the view that Others were imply some aspect of winter itself. Ygritte's statement dismayed me.

[Lady Winter Rose]

All I hope about 3-Eyed Crow is that "he" is she and that "he" is good. I don't think latter is possible, but "he" still could be she. Which would be awesome, because it is total twist for Bran&co.

[Spoony]

The theory that Mance released the Others while looking for the Horn runs into the problem that Mance was only looking for the Horn in order to flee from the Others. If the Others weren't out and about already, then Mance has nothing to flee from.

Craster had also been giving his sons to the Others long before this. Although it is possible that what Mance did somehow exacerbated the problem.

All we can say at this point is that if it is important at all GRRM will clue us in later in the series.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

The theory that Mance released the Others while looking for the Horn runs into the problem that Mance was only looking for the Horn in order to flee from the Others. If the Others weren't out and about already, then Mance has nothing to flee from.

This is an easy issue to solve if you think that Mance was originally looking for the Horn in order to take down the wall and free his people to take over the South, and then changed to wanting to flee from The Others after he awoke them. But I'm aware this isn't very popular. To me it doesn't make sense to talk about "awakened ghosts" or whatever unless they are somehow significant (i.e. they are wights and/or Others).

(To be honest if he was already fleeing from The Others, the Horn of Winter is a pretty dumb tool to look for. If the wall's down getting south isn't going to protect his people).

[Spaceman Hobbes]

This is an easy issue to solve if you think that Mance was originally looking for the Horn in order to take down the wall and free his people to take over the South, and then changed to wanting to flee from The Others after he awoke them. But I'm aware this isn't very popular. To me it doesn't make sense to talk about "awakened ghosts" or whatever unless they are somehow significant (i.e. they are wights and/or Others).

(To be honest if he was already fleeing from The Others, the Horn of Winter is a pretty dumb tool to look for. If the wall's down getting south isn't going to protect his people).

Which is why Mance didn't blow the horn upon arriving at the wall. It's a last resort, and a potential blackmail/bargaining chip.

I still think there's a strong possibility that the CotF will play a role in the Others plotline. 3EC is the most probable way to do this. If that's the case, then I think Bloodraven or Benjen is coldhands. If the CotF are completely gone, then I think the safe bet is Bloodraven is 3EC and Benjen is Coldhands.

[MightilyOats]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe George has gone on record saying that Mormont left a bit of himself behind in his raven.

[MightilyOats]

Oh, and PS, opening up old crypts for the Others to then go through and re-animate corpses for their army, could help explain Ygritte's comment about how Mance woke up so many ghosts in his search.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

To me it doesn't make sense to talk about "awakened ghosts" or whatever unless they are somehow significant (i.e. they are wights and/or Others).

Ned also takes about angry spirits haunted the crypts if the swords are ever taken from the tombs of the Kings of Winter. Do you similarly believe that Others and wights are haunting the crypts of Winterfell, now that most of the older swords have been rusted away?

[Calibandar]

Interesting discussion.

I think that we can take for "certain", pertaining to this topic, is:

1) Coldhands is not the same as the Three Eyed Crow. These are two different entities. Coldhands is connected to the 3EC and will lead Bran to what may be the only person who can teach him.

2) Mormont's Raven may be more than a simple raven. I agree that there are some touches here and there where Martin sows this idea. But we also know that Mormont's Raven is not the Three Eyed Crow. There could be a connection, but it may just turn out to be a nice old raven as well.

Benjen as Coldhands makes sense for character continuity, but it might as well be another Brother.

Now, the idea of Bloodraven as The Three Eyed Crow is deeply intriguing and one that I had always dismissed as a loonie theory, but reading this thread does show some examples that there is definitly some significant symbolism, at the very least, and You'd have to consider him an option.

On the other hand, not every new important entity/character we meet needs to be someone secret. The Three Eyed Crow could also just be one of the last of the Greenseers. But I'd agree that for characters we have already met, Bloodraven has the best argumentation by far. There are some links.

[mikeym]

The theory that Mance released the Others while looking for the Horn runs into the problem that Mance was only looking for the Horn in order to flee from the Others. If the Others weren't out and about already, then Mance has nothing to flee from.

I'd interpreted this as being a genuine attempt by Mance to make an assault on the wall. Why would he head north into the heart of the Others territory if he were trying to escape them? He would just use the plan he finally went with and try to take the wall with superior numbers. Although I've been wrong before.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe George has gone on record saying that Mormont left a bit of himself behind in his raven.

This seems odd. I can't imagine it. Are you suggesting that Mormont had a warging relationship with the raven?

But we also know that Mormont's Raven is not the Three Eyed Crow. There could be a connection, but it may just turn out to be a nice old raven as well.

Well I'm, mostly for fun now, trying to keep defending the premise of this thread , that is that Mormont's raven is literally the 3EC. (I have to admit that when I'd originally posted I was thinking along the lines that the old gods were in the form of trees and animals and as such the 3EC could actually be a 'crow'.) I have now read more about Bloodraven and he looks like a likely candidate for the 3EC, but I'm going to stick with my position out of stubbornness and say that Mormont's raven is literally the embodiment of Bloodraven where he's been trapped after dying during a warg into a 'crow' (raven).

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I'd interpreted this as being a genuine attempt by Mance to make an assault on the wall. Why would he head north into the heart of the Others territory if he were trying to escape them? He would just use the plan he finally went with and try to take the wall with superior numbers. Although I've been wrong before.

Mustering that far north has two advantages. Mance would have had the political situation south of the Wall, beyond scattered rumors that would be unreliable and out-dated; and given the timing of the call to arms, which seems to have taken place some time during the events of A Game of Thrones, it's probable that Mance was unaware of the brewing civil war to the south. The upshot of this is, Mance would have been anticipating the probability of a strong Lord Stark in Winterfell, the traditional enemy of kings-beyond-the-Wall. Based on what Mance knew, mustering in the open (and thus word getting back to LC Mormont) could easily have resulted in an attack by Ned Stark's army before Mance was prepared. Best to preserve secrecy as long as possible, and mustering that far north offered the advantage of secrecy.

Secondly, Mance would have no way of knowing back in AGOT (when he formulated the strategy to begin with) how easily he could have overwhelmed the Wall, or that its defenders would not have a credible leadership to negotiate with. The unity of the North was his biggest obstacle--he couldn't plausibly dig out every gate at the same time if the Starks would be waiting on the other side to take them out piecemeal. No, what the situation would require was the striking of some kind of deal, not just with Lord Mormont but with Lord Stark as well; and in order to get the mighty Lord Stark to come to terms, they would need leverage of a particularly convincing sort. And where can Mance get that leverage? Well, apparently Mance believed that Joramun's horn would be buried with him, or with one of his allies or successors, which seems reasonable enough.

Finally, I think you're overestimating the degree to which the Frostfangs are "the heart" of Other territory. If you look at the map in ASOS, human-occupied territory goes on for hundreds of leagues further north (as far north as Thenn), and the Land of Always Winter is further still. Certainly Jon Snow and Qhorin Halfhand never ran into any Others or wights in the Frostfangs.

[George Snow]

Well I'm, mostly for fun now, trying to keep defending the premise of this thread , that is that Mormont's raven is literally the 3EC. (I have to admit that when I'd originally posted I was thinking along the lines that the old gods were in the form of trees and animals and as such the 3EC could actually be a 'crow'.) I have now read more about Bloodraven and he looks like a likely candidate for the 3EC, but I'm going to stick with my position out of stubbornness and say that Mormont's raven is literally the embodiment of Bloodraven where he's been trapped after dying during a warg into a 'crow' (raven).

And I don't believe that Mormont's raven IS literally the 3EC, because if it was, then Coldhands wouldn't need to take Bran so far north of The Wall. He wouldn't need to take him north of the wall, at all. Thus, Coldhands's actions are contradictory to Mormont's raven being the 3EC.

Now, do I believe that 3EC may skinchange into Mormont's raven on occasion? I think that is a distinct possibility, and, at the least, there is no contradictory evidence to that in the books. The only thing that may contradict that, is that we know that weaker wargs cannot connect beyond the wall (i.e. Jon cannot sense Ghost when the two are on opposite sides of the wall.)

GH

[weezul]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe George has gone on record saying that Mormont left a bit of himself behind in his raven.

If Mormont was a warg, then yes Mormont definitely left much of himself behind in his crow, and maybe he warged into a whole flock of crows while dying. Or maybe Mormont's crow is one of Bloodraven's wargs who helped Mormont. Or even Bloodraven joined with Mormont when Mormont warged into his crow. Or vice versa ala Bran warging into Hodor.

I'm dubious that Mormont *was* 3EC simply because otherwise he'd never have needed 300 watchmen with him for scouting beyond the wall. There might however be some tradition of warg Lord Commanders preserving their life's experiences in crows for later warg Lord Commanders, i.e. Mormont wasn't 3EC but they're one now. <shrug>

If not stated otherwise, we should assume that Coldhands is NOT the same as 3EC, Mormont, Bloodraven, etc. If there are numerous coldhands, then presumably they're creaded simply by killing an Other, and any individual coldhands need not be Benjen. If only one Coldhands exists, then presumably he survived for some special reason, like preserving his consciousness in warged animals until the Sam slew the Other, gaining the aid of 3EC, etc.

In any case, we don't know really much beyond the fact that Mormont's crow was some watchmen's warg, and Coldhands is a wight that doesn't serve the Others.