3 Eyed Crow

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I'd have assumed you guys would be all over this super geekoid way of explaining why the crow does what it does.

Well, it suffers from the problem that we've never seen a "wargish" person in the series before. We've seen some people who are wargs, and other people who display no apparent tendencies in that direction. There hasn't been anybody in the middle like this, as MO conceded.

And it still doesn't explain why the crow knew to burn the wight when Mormont didn't.

[Ramz]

Well, it suffers from the problem that we've never seen a "wargish" person in the series before. We've seen some people who are wargs, and other people who display no apparent tendencies in that direction. There hasn't been anybody in the middle like this, as MO conceded.

And it still doesn't explain why the crow knew to burn the wight when Mormont didn't.

I don't think Oats really means that this is some sort of warg maneuver done by Mormont that will all be explained in the coming books; but more along the lines of something akin to the end of the movie Inception. Its sort of up to the reader to fill in the blanks, or think what they want. There will likely never be evidence to support anything about Mormont's crow somehow accessing a piece of Mormont's soul to better progress the story. Its just sort of a cool idea.

What happened in the burning of the wight scene btw? I've no recollection other than Jon coming to the rescue.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I don't think Oats really means that this is some sort of warg maneuver done by Mormont...

Really? Because that's pretty much exactly what he said:

That might be what I was thinking of, and Mormont leaving something of himself behind in his raven does not mean he's necessarily an out and out warg.

He might just have wargish tendencies, and only in this case.

I alluded to the scene with the wight in an earlier post: The raven screamed out "Burn! Burn! Burn!" (without prompting before Jon Snow set the wight on fire in A Game of Thrones. Mormont told Jon later that he didn't know that fire would be effective against wights until he saw it for himself, so that knowledge didn't come from him. The raven would have gotten it from some place else.

[Ramz]

Really? Because that's pretty much exactly what he said:

yea, well technically it would be a wargish maneuver I guess. but I don't think that's really the focus of his point here. I assumed he was simply trying to explain the crow's recent behavior in a cool way that wasn't really touched upon previous.

I alluded to the scene with the wight in an earlier post: The raven screamed out "Burn! Burn! Burn!" (without prompting before Jon Snow set the wight on fire in A Game of Thrones. Mormont told Jon later that he didn't know that fire would be effective against wights until he saw it for himself, so that knowledge didn't come from him. The raven would have gotten it from some place else.

Oh i see, thanks for clarifying. Whatever the case may be, something is def up with that crow.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

yea, well technically it would be a wargish maneuver I guess. but I don't think that's really the focus of his point here.

Meanwhile, the objection remains that the only people we've seen in Westeros who do "wargish maneuvers" are, y'know, actually wargs, "cool idea" or no.

[MightilyOats]

Actually, we have real life evidence for that. There are no wargs in real life, but still "pets" often adopt a lot of the personality and habits of their masters, especially intelligent social animals like, say, dogs or crows. Some dogs, after their masters died, are known to show emotional reactions to contexts their masters were known to dislike. "Speaking" birds even reproduced comments and idioms of their former masters in relatively fitting situations. Many people would argue that "there is still some part of their master in them".

That's...pretty much the point I was getting at, yah.

And, as I have already explained, it also essentially allows George to write the raven to be as intelligent as he needs it to be, if he needs it to be intelligent.

It miraculously landed on Jon's shoulder...simple familiarity, or something more? And all George has to do at such questions is smile and say nothing.

It's even more interesting that people keep asking for further examples. Mormont IS the example, why do I need more?

The line of "evidence" is constantly changing.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

It's even more interesting that people keep asking for further examples. Mormont IS the example, why do I need more?

Because if you want to argue that warging works like this in Westeros, you need an unambiguous case of warging working like this in Westeros, and that you don't have. As it is, your theory doesn't fit with the portrayal of warging elsewhere and doesn't explain all the oddities about Mormont's raven.

[MightilyOats]

Because if you want to argue that warging works like this in Westeros,

I'm not trying to argue that warging works like that in Westeros.

I have never made that claim.

All I have said, from the very beginning, is that it's a neat story trope and that it might be in play here.

For me, I think it is.

You keep railing against it, going so far as to make illogical comparisons, and ask for impossible evidence (other than the subject matter, which should be evidence enough but no, you need more somehow) in this odd attempt to disprove me, and not only that, to completely abolish the idea.

I didn't know this sort of thing was possible in real life, but that actually lends further credence to my theory, which is kind of nice.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I'm not trying to argue that warging works like that in Westeros.

Then why did you say that it was an example of "wargish tendencies"?

You keep railing against it, going so far as to make illogical comparisons, and ask for impossible evidence (other than the subject matter, which should be evidence enough but no, you need more somehow) in this odd attempt to disprove me, and not only that, to completely abolish the idea.

What does it mean to "abolish the idea"? Do we all clasp our arms against our chest and turn away from our computers, like when Worf was kicked out of the Klingon Empire?

[MightilyOats]

Then why did you say that it was an example of "wargish tendencies"?

I said that...once, twice? And it's a poor choice of words but the only ones I can use to fit into your mental view of how these things HAVE to happen.

What does it mean to "abolish the idea"?

Essentially, you going "get more arbitrary evidence which I know doesn't exist, or this isn't possible or even plausible."

Which has been your stance since square one, for no reason that I can understand.

Particularly not when you've already made the concession that these things do indeed happen quite frequently in fiction.

But that's your problem to deal with, not mine.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I said that...once, twice? And it's a poor choice of words but the only ones I can use to fit into your mental view of how these things HAVE to happen.

Oh, I see. Next time I rely on your own words, I'll ask you first if my limited understanding of the universe forced you to misspeak.

Essentially, you going "get more arbitrary evidence which I know doesn't exist, or this isn't possible or even plausible."

Which has been your stance since square one, for no reason that I can understand.

Particularly not when you've already made the concession that these things do indeed happen quite frequently in fiction.

But that's your problem to deal with, not mine.

When have I said that it wasn't possible? I've never said that it was _impossible_, just that I don't think that it's very likely. I don't understand why you're acting like that's beyond the pale.

[Spoony]

So you're saying that the wildlings are not superstitious?

Not that different. Ygritte and Ned are both using the same word to refer to an incorporeal spirit, not an Other or a wight. Ser Rodrik also refers to Lord Hornwood's shade being pleased to see his bastard son inherit, which is an odd thing to say if Ser Rodrik meant Lord Hornwood's undead corpse slavering for human blood.

*laughs*

Did you even read my comment?

I said that the wildlings have shown themselves to have superstitious and democratic tendencies.

Not that they are not superstitious.

If anything Ned has shown that he really isn't particularly superstitious.

When they found the dead dire wolf with the antler in its throat - he didn't read very much into it - unlike Catelyn, who actually seemed to.

It seems to me that Martin wrote Ned's reflection on the crypts of winterfel to give the reader more context on the history of the starks than any other reason.

The reference to shades is an afterthought - speculation along the lines of 'people think this - and if it were true that would be pretty scary.'

I just don't like the parallel that I've seen people draw between the starks and the wildlings - to me such a connection is nearly nonexistent.

And I think Jon's experiences with yggritte and the wildlings proves this.

[MightilyOats]

Oh, I see. Next time I rely on your own words, I'll ask you first if my limited understanding of the universe forced you to misspeak.

Yes, you have a very narrow point of view and I was using the best wording I could in order to fit into that.

After a whole page, you were still adamant that ONLY WARGS AND NOTHING ELSE could ever possibly do that, even after having made the concession that you have seen such things used in fiction before hand.

BUT ONLY WARGS MAY DO THIS THING.

So I use the word warg...ish.

Don't even pretend like this is my fault, chief.

When have I said that it wasn't possible?

Hahaha good lord, really?

This game now? Playing coy?

You compared a STORY TROPE to a FICTIONAL RACE in order to discredit my opinion.

Why the innocent game all of the sudden?

I've never said that it was _impossible_, just that I don't think that it's very likely. I don't understand why you're acting like that's beyond the pale.

I've already said, at least once but probably more times than that, that you not LIKING or SUBSCRIBING to my idea is fine.

The problem I have is when you keep going against it, asking for arbitrary evidence.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

You compared a STORY TROPE to a FICTIONAL RACE in order to discredit my opinion.

That's the third time you've brought this up. I have to confess that I really don't understand why that bothered you. That post was simply to say that GRRM doesn't always play by the same rules as other fantasy writers, something that's pretty hard to dispute.

[MightilyOats]

Neither has anything to do with the other.

And he plays by their rules as often as he doesn't, so what was the point?

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

And he plays by their rules as often as he doesn't, so what was the point?

The point was tropes that appear in other fantasy novels wouldn't necessarily happen in ASOIAF, so just because your idea has popped up in other fantasy novels doesn't mean that GRRM is employing here. Hence why I was asking for evidence about how magic worked in Westeros, not in Xanth or Middle-earth.

[MightilyOats]

...who even said that it has anything to do with magic?

I've no idea why this is so hard for you to come to terms with, do I have to go back to using the word wargish so you can sort of grasp the point I'm getting at?

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

...who even said that it has anything to do with magic?

Let's toss out the word "magic" for a second, then, and just say that we have no reason to believe that animals in Westeros behave like that.

[MightilyOats]

Except for...you know what, never mind.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Except for...you know what, never mind.

I don't understand why you think that your theory can serve as evidence for your theory. That's circular reasoning.