Brienne's last word

[Errant Bard]

Well, she did get rescued from a bear pit amongst captors much less noble...

And the difference between both situation is that in the latter, she has the means to save herself, whereas (twice) before, she was powerless, no choice to make.

You know, I just thought of that, but... there's an ironic echo here: for love/chivalry, she decides to not use the word "sword", which would have left her free and alive. Remember what Dick Crabb said when she prattled about her mythical hero not using his super-sword because it wasn't chivalrous? That if he faced Clarence Crabb, a dark monstrous guy, you would hear his ghost say afterwards in the wind "I should have used the sword, I should have used the sword".

Ah. She should have used the sword.

[Gnomestress]

Okay, I'll bite. What's the difference?

Edit: Tom O'Sevens is spying on Jaime and the Freys on behalf of the BwB. ;)

Berric: Noble, just, brave, inspiring, good leadership qualities, and fairly eloquent when speaking. He chooses the outlaw life to do good for the people. Fits the Robin Hood ideal for the most part. The BwB chose to stay under Berric's command after Robert and Ned are both dead. If they didn't like him as a leader, that might not have been the case. Berric's nicknames: The Lightning Lord (not sure if he has any others)

unCat: Noble in life but not so much in death, bent on vengeance, not choosy about who she orders killed, difficult to understand when she speaks. She chooses to use the BwB to get revenge on those she believes have wronged her, rather than to help the common people. unCat's nicknames: Lady Stoneheart, The Hangwoman, The Silent Sister, Mother Merciless.

They seem pretty different to me. :)

I know Tom's a spy. It was just something I remembered during your statements. He's not there to offer a voice of reason...or to play a cheerful ditty while Brienne chokes her last. :P

[Alexia]

Maybe they are more bloodthirsty now that Beric is gone, and this is a sort of commentary where war and violence ultimately corrupts everyone, even those that started with noble, or loving intentions.

I think that Beric and a couple others had noble intentions, but the vast majority of the BwB did not. I believe most of them (like Lem) were there for revenge, out of hatred, not out of a desire to see justice done.

He was Joffrey's strong right-arm, for Pete's sake, he was Gregor's brother... he should have been near the top of any "Lannister most-wanted dead-or-alive" hit list and they gave him a trial.

It would be a good point but they didn’t give him a trial, Beric did. They wanted to murder him for his horse – just like they tried to steer Brienne, Jaime, and Cleos into a path where they could steal back the horses they sold to them and murder them on trumped up charges.

Can you show a quote or something showing that another BwB member, besides Thoros or Beric, cared about justice? One of the men said to Merrett, “Lord Beric isn’t here but we’ll sort you out as he would, never fear.”

Gnomestress: Fair enough that Stoneheart/Catelyn does not rob travelers to give their money to the poor; I'd forgotten that part. But how are her actions any less justice than Beric's? The people she's hanging are not innocent of their crimes. What makes it so much worse to hang Ryman and Merrett Frey than to rob Sandor and set him on fire?

Dammit all, how'd I get sucked into this? I have work to do! :tantrum:

[Errant Bard]

I respectfully disagree, I think the BwB still have some sense of justice in them... [...]

Also, at least before Beric breathed his last, the BwB weren't about hanging people indiscriminately.

Huhu:

Anguy the Archer bristled at the suggestion of cowardice. "Ask the goat if we've hidden, Hound. Ask your brother. Ask the lord of leeches. We've bloodied them all."

Lem cracked his knuckles and said, "Wouldn't Lord Beric love to capture Jaime Lannister, though. . ."

"Would he hang him, Lem?" one of the village women asked. "It'd be half a shame to hang a man as pretty as that one."

"A trial first!" said Anguy. "Lord Beric always gives them a trial, you know that." He smiled. "Then he hangs them."

and the accusation:

"It wasn't my sword in their bellies. Any man who says it was is a bloody liar."

"You serve the Lannisters of Casterly Rock," said Thoros.

No, I see absolutely NO difference between then and now.

2. Of course "might by right" is not justice... by our standards. By Westerosi 7 or Rhollor ideals winning a tbc is seen a decision by the gods.

You think Catelyn is religious on that point, when the gods robbed her of her family, and stupid to boot?

Again, this scenario is just for fun.

Noble sacrifice, angst, and Brienne playing karma Houdini through no action of her, only standing there and refusing to act? :stillsick:

That's exactly why I think her request for combat would be granted.

No chance, or Hyle would have asked, too.

No argument here. But Tyrion showed us that t-b-combat is ALWAYS an option.

It's always an option to ask. The simple fact that it has to be granted shows that it can NOT be granted. In our case, it's out of the question to grant it, Brienne knows it, and so it's out of the question to ask. Plus it's some much more suicidal than saying sword...

[Errant Bard]

Gnomestress: Fair enough that Stoneheart/Catelyn does not rob travelers to give their money to the poor; I'd forgotten that part.

She does. Remember the orphans protected by some BwB members, or how the guys have support among the populace?

[sgboss]

Ah. She should have used the sword.

:bowdown:

Sorry Mace and Tywin, but the Bard has just convinced me.

Partially.

Great point. If Brienne does scream "Sword", it may not be Martinesque-surprise, but it would put her into a situation where she was conflicted between ideological morals vs the usefulness of the morals in the harsh, real world. Which would be very Martinesque-thematically. (Although its getting a little old at this point). Basically, Brienne is Sansa with a sword: ridiculously naive, gullible. After all of her scorn and distaste for Jaime, shouting a "sword" would put her in a similar dilemna: Say the word and save the innocent (Pod), or keep an oath to an oathbreaker. Plus, it would also set up a potential show-down between Brienne vs left-hand Jaime. Oh, how the singers would tell the tale!

"Oh Jaime, I love you! But I swore an oath to kill you, and need to break my oath to you! I know its sounds bad, but if anyone understands the intricate, convoluted, rationalization involved in oathbreaking, its you, my sweet!"

"Oh Brienne, through all my oath breaking I only knew one absolute truth: die with a sword in your hand. I'm going to be mean to you now because I secretly don't want you to go soft on me, because I want to die and also relish the challenge of facing you left-handed, so... engarde wench!"

Besides, if she shouts "Trial/combat" it would be the 4th? 5th? one in the series? Lame.

[Alexia]

She does. Remember the orphans protected by some BwB members, or how the guys have support among the populace?

Does she rob travellers to get this funding, though? The most egregious example of this being the attempted robbery of Jaime/Brienne/Cleos?

But very good point that the BwB has continued to provide aid to the poor under her leadership. :)

[sgboss]

In our case, it's out of the question to grant it, Brienne knows it, and so it's out of the question to ask.

Think we've reached an impasse here... My point: Under worse circumstances with viler accused, combat has been granted. Your point: That was Beric, not the BwB/Stoneheart. AND also: the BwB are not as noble as I have been arguing.

Guess there's not much more to say.

Plus it's some much more suicidal than saying sword...

Yes. But, I'm arguing that Brienne thinks in terms of oaths and honor, not calculated risk and reality, like Tyrion. So it would be natural for her take the riskier option that preserved honor.

[Happy Ent]

[...] a similar dilemna: Say the word and save the innocent (Pod), or keep an oath to an oathbreaker.

What is this oath (to Jaime) of which you speak? (Honestly curious.)

[sgboss]

What is this oath (to Jaime) of which you speak? (Honestly curious.)

Hi Ent,

Maybe "oath" was too strong a word... but Brienne felt strongly enough of a ?commitment? to Jaime that she didn't say "Sword" to begin with when given the choice, despite her original pledge to Catelyn. Please excuse my misuse of the word. I can edit the post if you feel strongly about it.

I was trying to convey that her morals wouldn't allow her to make a choice to go kill Jaime, even if it meant her life. And that, should she ultimately choose the "Sword" when the noose is around her neck, it would put her in a position where her pledge of fealty to Catelyn, who is now dead and corrupted, was in conflict with what Brienne thought was right... ie Not killing the now-somewhat-noble Jaime. Hence Brienne would finally understand the conflict in keeping, or breaking, an oath... and would understand Jaime.

Anyways, that last post with the oath-bit was meant to be humourous... fail.

[Errant Bard]

Yes. But, I'm arguing that Brienne thinks in terms of oaths and honor, not calculated risk and reality, like Tyrion. So it would be natural for her take the riskier option that preserved honor.

No, it would be natural for her to hold until the life of someone she cares about is threatened, then like Ned Stark himself, she realizes that even if she values chivalry/fairness before her own life, she does not before the life of some others. Why would she say nothing until the point where she sees Pod dying? (it's the last thing she describes before taking a gulp of air ans screaming: Pod choking and dying.)

[sgboss]

Can you show a quote or something showing that another BwB member, besides Thoros or Beric, cared about justice? One of the men said to Merrett, “Lord Beric isn’t here but we’ll sort you out as he would, never fear.”

OK, here we go:

SoS, pg 189 quoth Harwin "these were the king's people the lions were savaging. If we could not fight for Robert, we would fight for them., until every man of us was dead. And so we did, but as we fought, something queer happened. For every man we lost, two showed up to take his place. A few were knights or squires, of gentle birth, but most were common men - fieldhands and fiddlers and innkeeps, servants and shoemakers, even two septons."

SoS pg 251, Harwin "I've heard his lordship say this war began when the Hand sent him out to bring the king's justice to Gregor Clegane, and that's how he means for it to end."

and

pg 390 - "Harwin sighed "R'hollor has judged him innocent."

Deeds:

1. protecting the children of the Inn

2. Thoros driving sheep and food to where Acorn Hall, Stoney Sept.

3. Chasing down the perpetrators of the Salt Pans massacre - these weren't Lannisters, Starks or Freys, they remnants of the Bloody Mummers.

4. pg 391 - Lem stops Arya from stabbing the hound.

A few more points:

The original purpose of the BwB was to carry out the King's justice. The forming members were hand-picked by Ned Stark and comprised of 20 of his own men, and were led by Lord Beric, Ser Darry, Ser Gladden Wylde, Lord Mallery and the priest Thoros. Yes, they have lost men and been replaced by men with tempers like Lem and the Mad Huntsman.

But to cast them as "low-born scum" and suggest they are bloodthirsty and only out for revenge, is, to me, an overstatement.

Also, the Bard and yourself have pointed out repeatedly that it is only Beric and Thoros, not the other BwB that have a sense of justice and would allow a trial. Does this make sense? The BwB follow their leaders around helping the poor and defenseless, putting their life on the line fighting battles, with no prospect of plunder, no realistic chance of victory, knowing that their ultimate reward will be a hangman's noose as Lem put it. Would these type of men endure all that without having some sort of dedication to honor and justice? They would undergo all that hardship, somehow ignoring the example set by Beric and Thoros to get revenge?

Lastly, I realize my only quotes are from Harwin. Asking me to rely on quotes from people other than Beric and Thoros is a little like tying my right arm and asking me to face Loras in single-combat.

Also, if they were only out to string up as many Lannisters and Freys as they could, why protect the small-folk? Its more than just for simple mutual self-preservation.

Now that Beric IS gone, and Stoneheart is their leader, I think the BwB may turn darker... but the jury is still out on that one.

OK - thats enough for one day... this posting is addictive, though.

[sgboss]

No, it would be natural for her to hold until the life of someone she cares about is threatened, then like Ned Stark himself, she realizes that even if she values chivalry/fairness before her own life, she does not before the life of some others. Why would she say nothing until the point where she sees Pod dying? (it's the last thing she describes before taking a gulp of air ans screaming: Pod choking and dying.)

Thats not what you were arguing earlier - you said that Brienne wouldn't say "trial" it was unlikely to work and because:

Plus it's some much more suicidal than saying sword...

So, your new argument is that Brienne is happy to die until she realizes that by refusing to blemish her honor she is also killing Pod.

I like it.

Thats a fair assessment of her motivation. I'll agree with that, its definitely a highly viable rationale for her thinking.

Not to be argumentative, but you really can't see Brienne trying to find a chivalrous solution so that she doesn't betray her morals? Isn't that what her character is all about? Isn't that why everone thinks she's so boring as a character?

I see Brienne as a stubborn, chivalrous knight who has been taught to choose honor over all else. When faced with the choices of: death (noose), dishonor (sword) or slim hope of survival with honor intact (combat) - I would think that a dogmatically trained knight like Brienne would choose the latter. If its a boring choice that a proto-type hero would choose... isn't that how Brienne thinks? If I've failed to convince you of this possibility, c'est la vie.

[Errant Bard]

So, your new argument is that Brienne is happy to die until she realizes that by refusing to blemish her honor she is also killing Pod.

No, not new, I did not mention why she would want it not to be suicidal at first, that's all. I thought it was obvious anyway that she wanted to save Pod, not herself. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

Not to be argumentative, but you really can't see Brienne trying to find a chivalrous solution so that she doesn't betray her morals? Isn't that what her character is all about? Isn't that why everone thinks she's so boring as a character?

No. If there is a chivalrous solution that doesn't betray her morals, she would have used it back in the trial, instead of waiting to be half choked to death. What she chooses is necessarily something that breaks something in her. I flat out refuse to believe that "Her mouth opened. Pod was kicking, choking, dying. Brienne sucked the air in desperately, even as the rope was strangling her. Nothing had ever hurt so much." refers to physical pain, after the punishment she was shown to be able to endure before.

But then, since what she chooses is not that perfect third solution that allows her to play houdini and go on as if nothing happened, it would in turn be half-assed if it was just a small sacrifice most likely to fail, rather than the real sacrifice that will get them down for sure. It would be petty to hold on to some scraps of "chivalry" at the risk of doing it for nothing. If you've decided to take the dive for your friends life, you do it all the way, not just enough so a miracle needs to happens anyway.

[sgboss]

But then, since what she chooses is not that perfect third solution that allows her to play houdini and go on as if nothing happened, it would in turn be half-assed if it was just a small sacrifice most likely to fail, rather than the real sacrifice that will get them down for sure. It would be petty to hold on to some scraps of "chivalry" at the risk of doing it for nothing. If you've decided to take the dive for your friends life, you do it all the way, not just enough so a miracle needs to happens anyway.

I see your thinking now. I starting to like the possibilities with the "sword" scenario, I must say. Allow me to interpret your post, a little differently. This event has the capacity to transform Brienne's black & white idealistic notion of chivalry to something less lofty, but more real, and perhaps more 'truly' noble.

As in: Which is the more chivalrous course? To allow yourself and an innocent boy to die so that you don't break your word/oath/promise.... Or, to forgo your own honor (in the eyes of others and to yourself) to give the best possible chance to save the boy.

The latter action would be akin to Ned allowing the realm to think he had begotten a bastard because he put Jon's well-being and safety above his own perceived honor.

(this is NOT the start to THAT issue, it was just the best example I could think of).

In any case, that would lead to a very interesting character transformation/coming of age for Brienne.

Not to condense 2 pages of intricate debate into a sentence, but to sum up, your rationale for "sword" is that, while not a massive surprise, would force the character of Brienne to illustrate "true" chivalry (no glory, no thanks, no reputation), and "trial" or "rescue" or other alternatives are a cheat, or as you would say, "houdini", from this path.

I can get on board with that.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

You know, I just thought of that, but... there's an ironic echo here: for love/chivalry, she decides to not use the word "sword", which would have left her free and alive. Remember what Dick Crabb said when she prattled about her mythical hero not using his super-sword because it wasn't chivalrous? That if he faced Clarence Crabb, a dark monstrous guy, you would hear his ghost say afterwards in the wind "I should have used the sword, I should have used the sword".

Ah. She should have used the sword.

Well done.

Been thinking about what's likely to happen after she says sword. I guess I assumed she would say what unCat wanted her to and swear to slay Jaime, but swear falsely with no intention of carrying through on it.

But why would the BwB let her renege with impunity? They can keep Pod as a hostage, and hang him again if she lets them down. With his life hanging in the balance, I think either she or Jaime will have to die (both most like if he dies, since he's more cautious than he once was). I can't see her killing him, since Jaime seems to be scheduled to leave the world at the same time as Cersei.

[Errant Bard]

This event has the capacity to transform Brienne's black & white idealistic notion of chivalry to something less lofty, but more real, and perhaps more 'truly' noble.

[...]

Not to condense 2 pages of intricate debate into a sentence, but to sum up, your rationale for "sword" is that, while not a massive surprise, would force the character of Brienne to illustrate "true" chivalry (no glory, no thanks, no reputation), and "trial" or "rescue" or other alternatives are a cheat, or as you would say, "houdini", from this path.

Yes, it forces Brienne to face reality, namely that reality is not a song, and chivalry/honour is not always easy or good. That sometimes protecting something mean not protecting something else. In short, she gets what Jaime got: what to do when you have the choice between betraying your liege (and breaking your oath but staying somewhat true to chivalric ideal) and not saving people you like (but not breaking your word)?

I don't think it would illustrate "true" chivalry per se, I just think a third party rescue is a cheat out of a very normal situation, that every adult member of the feudal world has to face, eventually (well, except Jon, mind). The true test for her lies afterwards, if she is allowed to live: will she, like she was adamant about when she fled Riverrun, never betray her word? Will she try to cling to both honour and conflicting values (like the current Jaime) to fail at both? Will she choose to just die at Jaime's hands? Totally break her word and work for the Lannister army against Catelyn?

All I know is that there's a crescendo in Brienne's chapters: it starts with her being almost fanatical and naive about honour and knights, despite what she saw, as shown by the first exchanges with Jaime, where she just despises him, then we have the famous scene when she tells him to yield, and he answers "or what, you kill me and become like me?" (paraphrasing). Then, gradually Jaime saves her, tells her about his circumstances, than saves her again, further throwing her into doubt about her manichean worldview. Then she gets that Crabb story, about how being chivalrous is being suicidal, when the opposition is tough (as in the real world). She cries when she is forced to kill Shagwell. Then she is faced with her own dilemma: Follow her oath and kill someone she loves, or break her oath, protect someone she loves, but be responsible of other people she likes dying. We can see she's now not quite so fanatical as she was before when it comes to choices that really matter. It's an interesting evolution. And if we're out for surprises/subversions/non-stereotypical stories, there is always the possibility that she would choose to NOT renege and her oath, and accept that honour can mean you have to kill loved ones. It's always an effective narrative trick when it happens.

Anyway, whatever it was, she came to a very painful decision just before screaming that word. That's what make her say that nothing had ever hurt so much, this forced, dream-shattering decision.

But why would the BwB let her renege with impunity? They can keep Pod as a hostage, and hang him again if she lets them down. With his life hanging in the balance, I think either she or Jaime will have to die (both most like if he dies, since he's more cautious than he once was). I can't see her killing him, since Jaime seems to be scheduled to leave the world at the same time as Cersei.

Yes, keeping Pod (and Hyle, maybe) as collateral is an obvious way of controlling Brienne.

I can see her killing him. His link with Cersei took a real hit in AFFC (it was rushed, too), and it's not like he really has an obvious role to play in the rest of the story... Well, except a confrontation with Dany about Aerys, but that's not really necessary, plenty of people in ASOIAF take their secrets in their graves, as they should, like Ned. Not having every truth revealed to the characters by the end makes the whole story better, it's how it works in reality, and the next generations have always to work with biased accounts and lost information.

[alguien]

But why would the BwB let her renege with impunity? They can keep Pod as a hostage, and hang him again if she lets them down. With his life hanging in the balance, I think either she or Jaime will have to die (both most like if he dies, since he's more cautious than he once was). I can't see her killing him, since Jaime seems to be scheduled to leave the world at the same time as Cersei.

If she did say "Sword", (which is by far the most likely outcome) then I'm almost certain Catelyn will keep Pod as hostage. There's really no other way to control her. As for Hyle... I'm not sure. A dark part of me wonders whether Stoneheart and Co. will still kill Ser Hyle just to prove to Brienne that they are serious.

As to what happens beyond that point...

A part of me thinks that instead of killing Jaime, Brienne might actually fully betray Catelyn/Stoneheart and try to secure Lannister aid in rescuing him. [ETA: Pod, that is] I think it will certainly be a tense moment, whatever she decides.

BTW, Errant Bard, that was a great catch on Dick Crabb saying, "I should have used the sword." when talking about Clarence Crabb.

[Mickey2093]

I've been wracking my brain trying to figure out what single word could cause them to cut her down before she dies. I must say, I'm at a loss - I've gone back through the text looking for anything in her conversations with Cat, and nothing stands out that would grab Cats attention. I'm assuming of course that all she needs to do is get a bit more time to explain what has been going on - with Jaime, Sansa, Arya (what she knows, anyway), and the rest of the crap going on in Kings Landing. Given the opportunity to actually explain, calmly (she never really got the opportunity to calmly explain during her 'trial', she was badgered and got flustered and quickly given the ultimatum), I think she could convince Cat that she really IS searching for Sansa - to fullfil her oath to Cat...

But again - for the life of me - I can't imagine what that single word would be... and it's frustrating as hell... lol... i was hoping someone in this thread would make a suggestion that i could say 'yeah, that would do it', but so far, nothing i've seen gives me a solid feeling like that... I guess I'll just have to wait for the explanation in the books, if he ever decides to finish them...

[sgboss]

Yes, keeping Pod (and Hyle, maybe) as collateral is an obvious way of controlling Brienne.

I can see her killing him. His link with Cersei took a real hit in AFFC (it was rushed, too), and it's not like he really has an obvious role to play in the rest of the story... Well, except a confrontation with Dany about Aerys, but that's not really necessary, plenty of people in ASOIAF take their secrets in their graves, as they should, like Ned. Not having every truth revealed to the characters by the end makes the whole story better, it's how it works in reality, and the next generations have always to work with biased accounts and lost information.

If the sword scenario bears out, I can definitely see Pod being kept as a hostage and Hyle being hung as a warning.

As for why the BwB would let Brienne go with "impunity", I think two arguments serve well:

1. The BwB are not adversarial or cruel for its own sake (see above) and actually have reason to respect Brienne because of her actions to protect the children of the inn.

and if the ideals of the BwB aren't enough, then:

2. It makes sense strategically... if the BwB want to wreak destruction on Lannisters, then Brienne is their best bet to get close enough to assassinate Jaime (as someone put in a hilarious post, much better than putting Lem in drag undercover, or using "poison-birds"). Having a child hostage and knowing her resolve to protect children makes her an even more ideal choice of assassin.

I can see Brienne killing Jaime. I think we've all been side-tracked by the Valonquar issue, and assume that Jaime will have to return to kill Cersei. Even if that happens, a duel-to-death finish between Brienne and Jaime seems like a fitting end for him. (Do I want to see Jaime die. No. Would it serve as a fitting end? It definitely could.) Between Jaime and the Hound, GRRM has been drilling the ideas that knights were trained not to fear death (Think of Spartans in 300... easy to say, but difficult to truly get your head around). At some point, one of these guys has to die with their sword in their hand. Since we don't have a Hound POV (yet??) and aren't privy to his thoughts, Jaime makes a good candidate to die this way.

Lastly, it looks like events in lower Westeros are pretty much over with. The war is done, the action is shifting to the North and East. And GRRM has alot of issues to cover in the next books. So, I think its conceivable, that when we do see lower Westeros again, it will be rushed, with Dany sweeping through like so much chaff. And the storylines of Cersei, Jaime and Brienne don't have much left in them; hence I see them dropping dead like flies.