Worst of the worst

[Carldog]

Why even put the note in AFFC at all? This is a fair gripe Ran, but to me the front or back makes no difference. Three quarters through the book, one realizes that half the POVs aren't making an apperance and you figure that they will be in ADwD. I mean, Martian said nothing about Theon after ACoK and there are plently of non-pov characters, whom are important, that dip in and out with no explanation. The note served it's role but was not needed. I also feel this way because I dislike spoilers...

[BigFatCoward]

That Tywin doesn't have a valyrian steel sword. no way, no how would that man not have found a way.

[Rakka]

I think that the common folk are shown to be shaken by the civil war and the following deaths of High Septons, what else would the Sparrows be but folk who are having a hard time coping with their world turning upside down and finding a relief in a less decorated form of religion.

What bugs me in the heraldry is that the Tyrell "rose" has four petals according to the books' illustration. (Could be a flaw on the Finnish publisher's side, but they're damn dedicated to making good work otherwise.)

But worst...

1- POV characters not dying, or when dying, not staying dead. I'm too used to authors using misdirection, so I don't believe anyone (Theon, Davos, Brienne) actually having died unless I see the body. Genre savvy and all that, and wish it weren't so with Song.

2- Dany goofing around in the East and pining for a West that only exists in her head. Fuck Mereen. She was way more interesting when she was on the move, it seems her character growth stopped when she did. After Astapor it was pretty much all the same, and it got boring very fast. She should have kept moving and gone to Asshai like she was told. While the results of not having done that may likely turn the story to quite different path from the standard Dragon Princess Conquer, just... bleh. Also, two words: Mereeneese knot. Martin really wrote himself into corner with that one.

[Alexia]

I mean, Martian said nothing about Theon after ACoK

Actually, in ASOS Roose tells Robb and Catelyn that Theon is currently residing in his dungeons and pulls out a piece of skin Ramsey flayed from Theon's fingers. There's no question Theon is still alive...if somewhat worse for the wear.

[Carldog]

Alexia,

I'm talking about any "notes" Martian would have left about characters he doesn't plan on writting about for any period of time... such as he did at the end of AFfC.

[Gurkhal]

I dislike most that its so awefully long between the books. :(

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I dislike that there's no sense of time besides day and night. it's like "Oh yeah that happened 6 months ago, even though it just ahppened 4 pov's ago" i'd like some sort of time system to be given on a regular basis.

[Greywolf2375]

That Tywin doesn't have a valyrian steel sword. no way, no how would that man not have found a way.

Well, he does end up with two...

[mikeym]

That Tywin doesn't have a valyrian steel sword. no way, no how would that man not have found a way.

Also he did loose a brother that way, so he may have considered it a fools errand.

[CFdS]

Well, he does end up with two...

What is actually quite weird. He cannot buy or steal one from any minor house for all the years but he can just take Ice (what belonged either still to the Starks or now to the Baratheons) and make two Lannister swords out of it without anyone raising objection.

[Edit]Similar is true for marrying Sansa to Tyrion: Sansa was a hostage, not a ward of some kind. Marrying Sansa off has as much legality as if Catelyn had married Jaime at gunpoint...

[Ran]

Tywin wouldn't steal one. Beneath him. And no House would willingly give up an heirloom Valyrian steel sword.

But Ice was the weapon of an attainted traitor, and one might say then that legally speaking, all of his possessions (including the sword) are forfeit to the crown. Voila.

[MirriMaz]

Most of my gripes with series are from AFFC, it just felt disoriented in comparison to the previous three. I also disliked the way Cersie was written in it, I just wanted her to be a bit more conniving and with actual purpose (more like what LF turned out to be) she was more like a frightened evil child who just reacted to what was happening around him.

When it comes to women in general I think the series has probably some of the strongest female characters around, even Sansa who everyone regards as weak...I just find her very real, and most of her actions make sense to me.

[mikeym]

Similar is true for marrying Sansa to Tyrion: Sansa was a hostage, not a ward of some kind. Marrying Sansa off has as much legality as if Catelyn had married Jaime at gunpoint...

Except that she's a girl and therefore has very little rights in Westeros.

[Lady Blackfish]

When it comes to women in general I think the series has probably some of the strongest female characters around ...

You know, I was talking to some friends about the HBO adaptation, and who would be considered the star of each season. Not once so far would it be a female character, the closest you'd get is Brienne or Cersei in AFFC but because one is boring and the other evil, Jaime makes for a much easier pick. And that's the fuzziest it gets. The only female character who seems knocking on the door is Daenerys.

Martin has a lot of interesting women, but how strongly he champions their perspective in the overall balance is another story. It's nice that it's a lot better than most epic fantasy series, but I don't think it's the brass ring.

I personally think he knows very well that it'd be harder to get into Sansa and Cat's perspectives for all the reasons that they tend to be unpopular, he clearly understands character appeal very thoroughly given how he approaches other characters. I remember thinking that it felt like he considers their (Sansa's and Cat's, who ostensibly are his attempt to write realistic female characters for the setting) archetypes as having something to apologize for, and I really didn't know what to make of that, but it was not a pleasant feeling, though I read on anyway.

(I don't think Martin means anything bad, but he's very archetypal and that makes his reach limited by the limitations of pre-existing archetypes.)

[trio]

But Ice was the weapon of an attainted traitor, and one might say then that legally speaking, all of his possessions (including the sword) are forfeit to the crown. Voila.

Exactly, and it's the same with Sansa - she's the "possession" of a traitor also. Not even one traitor, but of two, since Catelyn is off supporting Robb. So she's forfeit just like Ice. Sucks for her, but it's war I'm afraid.

I'm another one not mad about the action that female characters get. Brienne at least gets to do something, and you can argue that Arya's story has a lot of action. But Sansa and Cat often just stand around wringing their hands with furrowed brows next to a more active male. It's not something that you really see with Martin's main male characters. Except maybe Kevan, who's sole purpose is to show a very obvious contrast to Tywin.

[Lady Blackfish]

I'm another one not mad about the action that female characters get. Brienne at least gets to do something, and you can argue that Arya's story has a lot of action. But Sansa and Cat often just stand around wringing their hands with furrowed brows next to a more active male.

I am not mad about it but it does strike me as annoying. And there's a difference between being important and being physically active; it's not like a female character would have to be martial to get a lot of narrative play (Bran and Tyrion are not at all physical or martial characters). Possibly in the case of Sansa there's a mitigating meta/artistic concern in that Martin obviously wants her to go through a damsel in distress arc, but that's not really so with Catelyn, whom he clearly involved in major plot action when he needed to (but kinda dropped like a hot potato otherwise).

And pointing to female characters who at least get to do something by virtue of being more like men (tomboys and warrior women), that doesn't seem like progress for the genre to me, to be honest :\

[Alexia]

It's not something that you really see with Martin's main male characters. Except maybe Kevan, who's sole purpose is to show a very obvious contrast to Tywin.

May I present to you...Samwell Tarly? And...Brandon Stark?

People aren't possessions whose custody is taken over when the family patriarch is attainted. That being said, the Starks weren't in a position to complain, considering anyone in a position to complain was massacred shortly thereafter. There is no higher authority to complain to if the monarch decides to abuse his power. Of course, a monarch can only abuse power to a certain degree before people just won't take it anymore (Exhibit A: Aerys).

Ran - was Ned or Robb ever actually attainted? I don't recall this and I do recall all Tywin's talk about helping a defeated enemy to his feet and Roose's comments that amnesties were for the likes of Robb Starks. If they were not attainted, the sword was stolen plain and simple.

[Ran]

Are we talking the same Catelyn here?

The one who convinces her husband to betroth her daughter to a prince, who convinces him of the importance of becoming Hand and protecting Robert from the Lannisters, who personally delivers the news of the attempt on her son's life, who seizes Tyrion Lannister in a bid to defend her family, who then decides to arm him to help protect them on the high road, who slits a wildling's throat, who advises her son, who negotiates the alliance with the Freys, who convinces him to treat with Renly and then personally carries that embassy out, who attempts to convince Renly and Stannis to put their differences aside, who saves Brienne's life and takes her into her service, who sends Jaime to King's Landing in a bid to get her daughters free before the war consumes everything, who attempts to keep Robb safe before entering the Twins, who takes a hostage to try and preserve his life before they're both killed... ?

Yeah, all that hand wringing, she didn't have much time to actually do anything, I guess....

ETA: Alexia, from AGoT:

From a drooping sleeve, heavy with gilded scrollwork, he drew a parchment, unrolled it, and began to read a long list of names, commanding each in the name of king and council to present themselves and swear their fealty to Joffrey. Failing that, they would be adjudged traitors, their lands and titles forfeit to the throne.

The names he read made Sansa hold her breath. Lord Stannis Baratheon, his lady wife, his daughter... And at the end, near last, came the names Sansa had been dreading. Lady Catelyn Stark. Robb Stark. Brandon Stark, Rickon Stark, Arya Stark. Sansa stifled a gasp. Arya....

It's true that there were people on this list who in the end weren't really noted down as traitors, but that's politics. The default assumption at court was that they were attainted traitors until otherwise decided.

[Alexia]

Aha! Thanks Ran. I'd still want to argue that they weren't attainted based on the fact that Sansa is considered the heir to Winterfell and Tyrion was supposed to found a dynasty with her(therefore she should have received Ice) but I guess its iffy.

Any examples of an attainted traitor's heirs inheriting?

ETA: I completely agree with your comments on Catelyn; I think she's a very active female character who did a lot.

[Ran]

All a matter of conveniance, politically. If they wanted to attaint Ned and Robb and then say that Sansa was heiress to Winterfell, they could do that. Who's going to question them, right?