Relative army strengths of the Great Houses

[Free Northman]

Do you have a source for that?

Yes. Ran. And his reference to a So Spake Martin quote, where Martin indirectly corroborates Doran Martell's statement that Dorne is the least populated of the Seven Kingdoms and that they have historically overstated their numbers for strategic reasons.

[Cydal]

Yes. Ran. And his reference to a So Spake Martin quote, where Martin indirectly corroborates Doran Martell's statement that Dorne is the least populated of the Seven Kingdoms and that they have historically overstated their numbers for strategic reasons.

I wasn't questioning the truth of it, I literally was asking for the reference source so I can read the interview and anything else GRRM might have said. Relax man

[Free Northman]

I wasn't questioning the truth of it, I literally was asking for the reference source so I can read the interview and anything else GRRM might have said. Relax man

Not sure which part of my post you interpreted as being "not relaxed". I merely answered your question. I think Ran posted a link to the quote earlier in this thread.

I love this discussion. It is the most important issue in the series to me.

[Batman]

Tyrell - 100,000

Lannister - 60,000

Tully - 45,000

Baratheon - 40,000

Arryn - 35,000

Stark - 30,000

Martell - 25,000

Greyjoy - 20,000

[Ran]

Never use the TV show as proof of anything just because GRRM is a co-executive producer. He does not have oversight over scripts, he isn't involved in filming, he isn't asked to sign off on every single detail.

That said, yes, it's generally accepted that the total, scraping-the-bottom-of-the-barrel army of the westerlands would hit about 60,000.

[QuaitheTheShadow]

No one has mentioned the Crannogmen?

No one can beat the Crannogmen. B)

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The TV series is not the books. And the numbers differ greatly.

Book numbers:

Tyrell 70,000

Lannister 50,000-60,000

Stark 50,000-60,000

Tully 40,000

Arryn 40,000

Martell 30,000

Stormlands 30,000

Greyjoy 25,000-35,000

Crownlands maybe 10,000-15,000

[Faint]

The TV series is not the books. And the numbers differ greatly.

Book numbers:

Tyrell 70,000

Lannister 50,000-60,000

Stark 50,000-60,000

Tully 40,000

Arryn 40,000

Martell 30,000

Stormlands 30,000

Greyjoy 25,000-35,000

Crownlands maybe 10,000-15,000

I'm largely in agreement with your estimates with the exception of the Tyrells. I was under the impression they could field closer to 100,000 men; considerably more than either the Starks or Lannisters.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The Tyrell number is the haziest of all. 70,000 is an educated guess based on Renleys army, but maybe either the Redwyne Fleet or the Hightowers are not included, maybe even both.

I chose the lower number because the Tyrells having as much manpower as Lannister and Stark combined feels off. It just doesn't fit with Mace Tyrell sitting with his whole strength at Storms End besieging Stannis with his handful men while first Connington and later Rhaegar get their asses kicked by the united rebell force.

[Faint]

Well, I'll check on it later but I could have sworn I read "90,000 spears" being thrown around quite a bit.

Incidentally, Tywin Lannister can always buy 30,000 extra men and the North cannot be invaded (save if you possess dragons or are the Others), so I don't see the Tyrells having so many men truly unbalancing things.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Tywin Lannister can't buy 30,000 additional men, otherwise he would have. The 60,000 already seem to tax his ressources enough. The Westerlands itself aren't big enough to support 60,000, a lot of them are probably already financed through Lannister gold.

And 90,000 or 100,000 seems just off. That is three times the strength of Dorne, and the Reach never successfully invaded.

[Faint]

And 90,000 or 100,000 seems just off. That is three times the strength of Dorne, and the Reach never successfully invaded.

Yes, but neither did the Targaryens, even with dragons. Sometimes manpower isn't enough.

[etu]

Tywin Lannister can't buy 30,000 additional men, otherwise he would have. The 60,000 already seem to tax his ressources enough. The Westerlands itself aren't big enough to support 60,000, a lot of them are probably already financed through Lannister gold.

And 90,000 or 100,000 seems just off. That is three times the strength of Dorne, and the Reach never successfully invaded.

While I agree that seems off (and frankly want to cry everytime I consider the difficulty of keeping an army of 100,000 fed using middle ages logistics), it is what the books seem to suggest.

The numbers disparity between Dorne and the Reach suggests to me that a) the Reach is full of big girls' blouses B) Invading Dorne is like sticking your dick into a sausage blender.

[TheCrannogDweller]

The numbers disparity between Dorne and the Reach suggests to me that a) the Reach is full of big girls' blouses B) Invading Dorne is like sticking your dick into a sausage blender.

Both well made points, but I think the bottom line is - in a narrow pass, 100 000 are about as useful as 1000.

[Arkantos]

I'm guessing Dorne employ some sort of phalanx like tactic when defending their lands, as long as they can't be flanked, it's pretty impassable. There's also the fact that the harse climate would hinder invading armies who aren't used to it.

Wasn't 20,000 spears mentioned in reference to their strength? A couple of thousand in small mountain passes could probably hold them, so I don't find that unbelievable, they were hit harder by the rebellion than most others, especially considering it isn't the type of land where you can raise lots of kids without them starving.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I'm guessing Dorne employ some sort of phalanx like tactic when defending their lands, as long as they can't be flanked, it's pretty impassable. There's also the fact that the harse climate would hinder invading armies who aren't used to it.

Wasn't 20,000 spears mentioned in reference to their strength? A couple of thousand in small mountain passes could probably hold them, so I don't find that unbelievable, they were hit harder by the rebellion than most others, especially considering it isn't the type of land where you can raise lots of kids without them starving.

If Dorne would employ a phalanx, they would have gotten their asses kicked every single time. That tactic was scrapped ~200 BC because the roman manipels kicked them soundly, which evolved and evolved and evolved and evolved ... (you get the meaning) to the tactics currently employed in Westeros 1500 years later. Every single step an improvement.

[Ran]

The Dornish prefer hit-and-run tactics, and are perfectly capable of making the already-arduous climb up the passes an absolute quagmire for a foe, forcing them to take it more slowly, denying them supplies, etc.

They're not the phalanx sort.

It must be said, though, that late medieval pike formations were spiritual descendants of the ancient phalanxes, and were very effective under the right circumstances. Sometimes what's old is new again.

[Arkantos]

If Dorne would employ a phalanx, they would have gotten their asses kicked every single time. That tactic was scrapped ~200 BC because the roman manipels kicked them soundly, which evolved and evolved and evolved and evolved ... (you get the meaning) to the tactics currently employed in Westeros 1500 years later. Every single step an improvement.

I said phalanx like, and it wasn't a scrapped tactic, pikeman used a similar sort of thing all through the middle ages...

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I said phalanx like, and it wasn't a scrapped tactic, pikeman used a similar sort of thing all through the middle ages...

Just like http://www.google.de/imgres?q=MODEL+T&num=10&hl=de&biw=1366&bih=648&tbm=isch&tbnid=F_11IerRVCLdLM:&imgrefurl=http://www.carstyling.ru/de/car/1907_ford_model_t/images/3403/&docid=vg-7WnmMpi7b9M&imgurl=http://www.carstyling.ru/resources/classic/large/12Ford_Model-T_1.jpg&w=1280&h=819&ei=6aOHUPv8I-mE4gSwwoGYDA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=408&vpy=194&dur=4151&hovh=179&hovw=281&tx=110&ty=101&sig=112785230569463368020&page=1&tbnh=137&tbnw=236&start=0&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:112 and http://static.pagenstecher.de/uploads/6/6d/6dc/6dc7/Ford_GT90_Concept.jpg are similar. Still not comparable.

[Arkantos]

Just like http://www.google.de...9,r:1,s:0,i:112 and http://static.pagens...T90_Concept.jpg are similar. Still not comparable.

You're being friggin ridiculous, the pike/halberd formations of the middlesages/renaissance were very similar, people believe that things like the schiltron were derived from ancient sources which described phalanxes. Do some research, the pike square and phalanx had very little difference between them, they're easily comparable.