Relative army strengths of the Great Houses

[The silver dragon]

My overall estimates depend a lot on the composition of Renly's armies at Bitterbridge and Highgarden: Renly has 90,000 men in the field at the start of ACoK. About 20-25,000 of these are Stormlanders, giving Renly 65-70,000 Reachmen.

These 65-70,000 don't include the Redwynes, nor were there many Hightower men (though some Hightower vassals were present), there are many Reach houses that aren't even mentioned by anyone, which may well mean that they didn't send very many men with Renly. On top of that, of course there is no reason to assume lords would send every trained knight/archer/man-at-arms, on the first call to arms by their liege (though some seem happy to do that with the north), that would be an incredibly stupid thing to do. If that army is destroyed then your house has no military power whatsoever, if that army gets ill your military strength is destroyed, if there is another attack from somewhere else then you won't have the men to answer a second calling of the banners.

Furthermore if there is any kind of idea about the maximum time for a call up (which there seems to be, though it is not elaborated on), then fielding all of your strength means that even if those men come home, you won't have any ability to field an army for another year or two, or more.

Based on that I've always been happy to give the Reach 100,000+ men, however if I was wrong and almost their entire strength is already raised, and they only have 80-85,000, then the numbers of the other houses may be less certain. A high number for the Reach inflates the minimum number for the Riverlands, westerlands and north, since I really can't picture those regions having considerably less than half of what the Reach does.

No way that the Reach has 100,000, and the West, Riverlands, Stormlands and north all have less than 40,000, that would mess up the power dynamic to the extent that no region would matter except for the Reach, which never seems to have been the case.

if you have read twoiaf. {spoiler}

one of their kings, garth the golden hand gardener, fought off a coalition of two kings.

when the king of the rock and the king of the storm lands declared war on him intent on carving up the reach for themselves.

garth defeated them both and forced them into a peace deal.

reach's army> storm lands+Westernlands army.

​so the reach having twice as many numbers lore wise does make sense.

the reason why it's been a non-factor recent ages is because of it's political instability with the lords of the reach often times out right ignoring commands from house tyrell in almost every war.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

This is very old, but this came as a suprise to me. I thought that 50 000 would be the absolute total the West could hope to put in the field.

60,000 is a huge overestimation on Ran's part IMO, they might be able to scrape the bottom of the barrel and get 60,000, but since that seems to include many able bodied non-soldiers that can be trained and equipped on medium notice, then I don't see why we shouldn't add 15-20,000 onto the numbers of all of the regions; they all have plenty of peasants lying around after all.

[Nihlus]

Crownlands may need some more, Rhaegar had 40,000 men on the Trident, 10,000 were Dornishmen, a negligible number were Reachmen, I don't know how he would have any Valemen, Stormlanders were mostly defeated or with Robert.

That leaves ~30,000 for the Riverlands and Crownlands, Targaryen loyalists include Darry, Ryger and Mooton (Goodbrook sounds like it was defeated mostly before the trident, and were probably only minor lords anyway), so I don't think the Riverlords had more than 10,000 with Rhaegar. Which leaves ~20,000 for Crownlanders, keeping in mind that a few thousand probably died at the Battle of the Bells.

Do we know that the Reach sent a negligible amount of men? I always assumed they had at least 10,000 there. A SSM from 2000 on the Siege of Storm's End implied they sent a decent force. Which would explain where those forty thousand men came from; IMO there's no way that most of the Crownlands can add up to much more than ten thousand, and we know that Dragonstone can only field between three and four thousand on its own. Plus, as you mentioned, the Stormlands were basically a non-factor, the Crownlands had taken some casualties already, and the Riverlands were divided, with more likely siding with the rebels than the opposite. I always guessed the troop distribution at the Trident as:

Royalists: 40,000

-10,000 Crownlanders

-10,000 Dornish

-10,000 Reachmen

-8,000 Rivermen

-2,000 Stormlanders

Rebels: 35,000

-15,000 Northmen

-10,000 Valemen

-10,000 Rivermen

-A few hundred Stormlands men; honor guard for Robert, negligible contribution.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

1. Renly may have lied, but then again maybe not.

2. His army size was 80'000 men.

3. City Watches do not count as feudal levies. They are paid peace keepers. Police aren't in the army (except maybe in some countries where they have the same grade of weaponry).

Reach can't top 100'000.

North- Mid-High 40s (hard to mass, some won't fight until winter has arrived and harvest is done)

Riverlands- Low 40s (never ever ever going to be a united force)

Vale- Low-Mid 40s

Westerlands- High 40s

Isles- Mid-High 20s

Reach- High 80s- Low 90s

Crownlands- Low 20s

Stormlands- Mid 40s

Dorne- High 20s- Low 30s

Exact numers is pretty and all, but not realistic. It fluctuates, and sometimes untrained peasants, sellswords, cilvilians and city watches or guard forces can become part of an army, which can bolster them by thousands. Although these are hardly part of feudal levies.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

if you have read twoiaf. {spoiler}

one of their kings, garth the golden hand gardener, fought off a coalition of two kings.

when the king of the rock and the king of the storm lands declared war on him intent on carving up the reach for themselves.

garth defeated them both and forced them into a peace deal.

reach's army> storm lands+Westernlands army.

​so the reach having twice as many numbers lore wise does make sense.

the reason why it's been a non-factor recent ages is because of it's political instability with the lords of the reach often times out right ignoring commands from house tyrell in almost every war.

Size does not mean victory, just because the Reach beat them in a battle doesn't mean they had the largest army at all. Besides, in those days part of the Reach was the Westerlands, and the stormlands had the Reach and crownlands too.

[The Holy Goat]

The maximum amount of men a Great House has the potential to field, though not all Great Houses can amass their full strenght, for various reasons. Targaryen represents the Crownlands, Baratheon the Stormlands.

Start of the series.

1, Tyrell: 100,000 men.

2, Lannister: 50,000 men.

3, Stark: 45,000 men.

4, Tully: 45,000 men.

5, Arryn: 45,000 men.

6, Baratheon: 35,000 men.

7, Targaryen: 35,000 men.

8, Martell: 30,000 men.

9, Greyjoy: 25,000 men.

End of a Dance with Dragons.

1, Tyrell: 95,000 men.

2, Arryn: 45,000 men.

4, Martell: 30,000 men.

3, Lannister: 30,000 men.

5, Baratheon: 25,000 men.

6, Stark: 25,000 men.

7, Greyjoy: 20,000 men.

8, Tully: 15,000 men.

9, Targaryen: 15,000 men.

[The silver dragon]

Size does not mean victory, just because the Reach beat them in a battle doesn't mean they had the largest army at all. Besides, in those days part of the Reach was the Westerlands, and the stormlands had the Reach and crownlands too.

it means that the reach has a force at least comparable to the westerlands and storms lands put together.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Silver dragon.

Not necessarily. In a offensive war, how much of your force is bogged down besieging various fortresses, and how much higher is the resource cost of getting 1 soldier 500 miles into enemy territory, versus the comparative resource cost for the defensive kingdom to have their forces lie in wait for the invader?

We don't know the circumstances of the war.

Also recall that before Aegon invaded, no force close in size to the 55k Field of Fire army had ever been raised, in the entire history of Westeros. So it is quite apparent that Kingdoms seldom mobilized their entire strength, out of fear of attack from other quarters. A 20k army projected into foreign lands was likely a very large force back then.

Hence it is quite possible that the Storm King sent say 15k men into the Reach, while the King of the Rock sent say 20k. This despite the Stormlands having maybe 25k men in total at the time, and the Rock having say 35k.

Defensively, the Reach could then have raised a larger portion of its strength to repel the 35k invaders, without necessarily exceeding the combined full potential of these two kingdoms.

In fairness, the Reach does probably come close to matching those two kingdoms combined, but it cannot be proved based on the reference you used.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

if you have read twoiaf. {spoiler}

one of their kings, garth the golden hand gardener, fought off a coalition of two kings.

when the king of the rock and the king of the storm lands declared war on him intent on carving up the reach for themselves.

garth defeated them both and forced them into a peace deal.

reach's army> storm lands+Westernlands army.

​so the reach having twice as many numbers lore wise does make sense.

the reason why it's been a non-factor recent ages is because of it's political instability with the lords of the reach often times out right ignoring commands from house tyrell in almost every war.

The Stormlands is below average anyway, the westerlands just above. Maybe 70,000 between them today, reduce by 30-40% for pre conquest. So they have no numerical advantage even with the lowest figure for the Reach.

My original point was that if they have the higher value: 100,000+, which would be 60-70,000 before the conquest, then they would be more than not only the Reach and Stormlands, but probably the Riverlands too, and an internally stable Reach could conquer the whole continent.

Put another way, if the higher figure is true for the Reach, the lower figures won't make sense for other regions, as even if it is the most densely populated it wouldn't make sense for it to have 2x the population density of the riverlands or 9 times the population density of the north.

This reflects with the actions of characters in the Dance. If the Reach had closer to the higher estimate, and the Riverlands, Stormlands, North and vale can raise around the lower estimates, then Rhaenyra wouldn't hve even needed to bother sending envoys to the North, Vale or Stormlands, and would have been better off sending her sons to 1/3 of the reach.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Ser Arthur

Indeed. The Reach joining any cause would then be the equivalent of the United States doing so in our modern world. A much bigger deal than it is made out to be in the series.

I believe that Ran has overestimated both the Reach and the West in his early assessments of their respective strengths. (I think he had the Reach at above 100k and the West at around 60k). I don't know what his current views are, but certainly in his old Youtube video on the population size of Westeros, I believe he erred in this respect.

Similarly, I believe he erred on the low side with the North.

This is no criticism of Ran. I just think he was incorrect in this case, and I have made my views clear on this in the past.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Ser Arthur

Indeed. The Reach joining any cause would then be the equivalent of the United States doing so in our modern world. A much bigger deal than it is made out to be in the series.

I believe that Ran has overestimated both the Reach and the West in his early assessments of their respective strengths. (I think he had the Reach at above 100k and the West at around 60k). I don't know what his current views are, but certainly in his old Youtube video on the population size of Westeros, I believe he erred in this respect.

Similarly, I believe he erred on the low side with the North.

This is no criticism of Ran. I just think he was incorrect in this case, and I have made my views clear on this in the past.

Not a matter of who the criticism is of, but I think it's likely too. Fertile areas mean lots of farmers and they usually aren't the ones walking off to war, although that is negligible. Army sizes in this series are pretty messed up, but that is the way it is. I think a better measure of strength is offensive and defensive strength.

The Reach is a funny one, since they don't send all that many men to the Field of Fire (or the westerlands sent less and planned to invade the Reach, which would require lots of reachmen dead), and even with the absence of Hightower and vassals, the army is small.

During the Dornish wars (Aegons and Daerons) they both come down the Prince's Pass, which is wide, so large army can enter, but since it is the only place an army can march, it also would make army smaller. No point in half your army arriving a week before the rest. Plus the Dornish tactics, which prevented any clean sweep of Dorne.

In the Dance they are divided, and this no one gets 100'000 extra men. Some are for Rhae, most for Aeg and any amount neutral (of the Tyrells stay neutral, lots of vassals would follow suite). If we knew all 13 Caltrops, things would be clearer, but World never elaborated on that...

Blackfyre they are divided again, even amongst houses.

And in Roberts Rebellion, they clean up, and then move onto a siege. Clearly they don't care to much about the Targaryens. It's a bad habit of the Reach to never fully commit, and especially so the Tyrells.

100'000 is near as large as Australian army today, including their reserve, so yeah, I don't find it likely... 80k, sure thing.

100'000k number is often from the assumption that since the Redwyne fleet can have 20'000 men on it, that House Redwyne contributes 20k men, and since Hightower is more powerful, they contribute even more, which is 45k just from two houses........ Not happening people!

[Free Northman Reborn]

Ramsay

The Field of Fire seems to have consisted of about 36k Reach soldiers and 18k Westerland men (based on the reference that there were 2 Reachmen for every 1 Westermen in the army of 55k).

It seems to me that a 20k host was a lot bigger deal in those days than it is today. Probably the equivalent of a 30k host today. (Armies seem to be about 50% larger today).

If that impression is fair, then it means the West's 18k men at the Field of Fire were equivalent to a host of around 27k today. And the Reach's 36k similar to a host of around 54k today.

And Torhenn's 30k was the equivalent of a 45k host today.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Do we know that the Reach sent a negligible amount of men? I always assumed they had at least 10,000 there. A SSM from 2000 on the Siege of Storm's End implied they sent a decent force. Which would explain where those forty thousand men came from; IMO there's no way that most of the Crownlands can add up to much more than ten thousand, and we know that Dragonstone can only field between three and four thousand on its own. Plus, as you mentioned, the Stormlands were basically a non-factor, the Crownlands had taken some casualties already, and the Riverlands were divided, with more likely siding with the rebels than the opposite. I always guessed the troop distribution at the Trident as:

Royalists: 40,000

-10,000 Crownlanders

-10,000 Dornish

-10,000 Reachmen

-8,000 Rivermen

-2,000 Stormlanders

Rebels: 35,000

-15,000 Northmen

-10,000 Valemen

-10,000 Rivermen

-A few hundred Stormlands men; honor guard for Robert, negligible contribution.

IIRC George said that there may have been a few Reachmen on the Trident, the fact that none are ever mentioned leads me to think that they were not very many.

3-4,000 from 3 or 4 tiny islands suggests a large number for the entire Crownlands. The Crownlands has as many lordly houses as most of the other regions (each house is certainly less powerful than the average house in other regions, but they should still contribute a significant number).

Aemond was able to raise 4-5,000 despite Rhaenyra having more support in the Crownlands and several battles already being fought in the region.

If there were that many Reachmen on the Trident we would know something about them.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Free Northman, makes sense, although I don't see any reasons why. Less winters? More cities and towns? Probably, and over 300 there has to be at least a little progress. I was not aware of any 2:1 quote about the army, but it stands to reason.

IIRC George said that there may have been a few Reachmen on the Trident, the fact that none are ever mentioned leads me to think that they were not very many.

3-4,000 from 3 or 4 tiny islands suggests a large number for the entire Crownlands. The Crownlands has as many lordly houses as most of the other regions (each house is certainly less powerful than the average house in other regions, but they should still contribute a significant number).

Aemond was able to raise 4-5,000 despite Rhaenyra having more support in the Crownlands and several battles already being fought in the region.

If there were that many Reachmen on the Trident we would know something about them.

Ehh. Crownlands is tough. The 5k men that Stannis has is from Velaryon, Celtigar, Sunglass (although the lord is dead), Bar Emmon, Seaworth with all 5 men and sellswords. Quite a few sellswords.

Aemond might have borrowed from the far north of the Stormlands, and the battles he had won was really just minor ones, until Rooks Rest, and even then.

20k seems like a reasonable number too me (it isn't a tiny region after all...) but they definitely have to be the weakest.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

For the Battle of the Trident I feel I should point out that the Rebel numbers can't be seen as the full strength of the rebels, after all we know that the north can raise 20,000 on relatively short notice, and that was with at least one major bannerman withholding troops, which means that Ned could have had 23,000+ in the south in the time that he had, and he had plenty of time, since Umbers, Karstarks, Mountain Clansmen and Mormonts were all with him in the south.

That leaves only 12,000 men between the Vale and the Riverlands, so we can assume one of two things: the men brought down the neck/high road by Ned/Jon were only those of the highest quality, and thus likely had a very high percentage of cavalry, or the rebels had more than that in the Riverlands at the time, but only 35,000 could be got to the Battlefield due to logistical constraints or some other reason, maybe they were purposefully fielding a force smaller than Rhaegars so that he would be encouraged to attack quickly.

Whatever the reason, I very much doubt the rebels had to be outnumbered on the Trident if they didn't want to be.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Free Northman, makes sense, although I don't see any reasons why. Less winters? More cities and towns? Probably, and over 300 there has to be at least a little progress. I was not aware of any 2:1 quote about the army, but it stands to reason.

Ehh. Crownlands is tough. The 5k men that Stannis has is from Velaryon, Celtigar, Sunglass (although the lord is dead), Bar Emmon, Seaworth with all 5 men and sellswords. Quite a few sellswords.

Aemond might have borrowed from the far north of the Stormlands, and the battles he had won was really just minor ones, until Rooks Rest, and even then.

20k seems like a reasonable number too me (it isn't a tiny region after all...) but they definitely have to be the weakest.

20,000 is a decent number, though I wouldn't put them too much lower than Dorne, if at all.

Also it has been pointed out previously that the Crownlands still fed the ~500,000 inhabitants of King's Landing for a reasonable amount of time, plus the city was flooded with refugees at that point, thus they would likely have 2-3,000,000 in Blackwater bay. Also it was noted that Rosby and Stokeworth contributed the most, we don't hear anything about Mallery, Rykker, Staunton or any of the other houses providing food for the capital, so the actual number is probably a fair bit higher. Using the 1% rule (which doesn't work that well IMO, but whatever) the Crownlands should thus have 20-30,000 soldiers.

[Nihlus]

IIRC George said that there may have been a few Reachmen on the Trident, the fact that none are ever mentioned leads me to think that they were not very many.

3-4,000 from 3 or 4 tiny islands suggests a large number for the entire Crownlands. The Crownlands has as many lordly houses as most of the other regions (each house is certainly less powerful than the average house in other regions, but they should still contribute a significant number).

Aemond was able to raise 4-5,000 despite Rhaenyra having more support in the Crownlands and several battles already being fought in the region.

If there were that many Reachmen on the Trident we would know something about them.

I never recall him saying anything about only "'a few" Reach soldiers. The only statement I can find in regards to Reach forces at the Trident is GRRM saying that the Reach sent some in addition to laying siege to Storm's End, sapping some of their strength.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Siege_of_Storms_End

Question: Why did mighty lords of Mace Tyrell and Paxter Redwyne's calibre waste their time and efforts in besieging an untested young lord with (apparently) only a few thousand men (and those weakened more and more of hunger to boot)? Meanwhile their overlord were losing the war?

Martin: The Targaryens had lost a number of battles (and had also won some), but they weren't really losing the war until the Trident and the Sack of King's Landing. And then it was lost. And sieges were a crucial part of medieval warfare. Storm's End was not geographically strategic, but it was the base of Robert's power, as important to House Baratheon as Winterfell was to the Starks. If it had fallen, Robert would have lost his home and his lands... and two of his brothers would have been hostages in enemy hands. All important chips. Also the fall of Storm's End might have convinced many of the storm lords supporting him that the time had come to bend the knee. So the castle was hardly unimportant.

Tyrell had a sizeable host, but some of his strength was with Rhaegar, certainly. Rhaegar actually outnumbered Robert on the Trident, although Robert's troops were more battle-tested. I haven't gone into the whole history of the fighting, but there was a good deal more to it than just two armies meeting on the Trident. There were a number of earlier battles, sieges, escapes, ambushes, duels, and forays, and fighting in places as farflung as the Vale and the Dornish Marches.

Yes, it's an old source. But I haven't seen any real reason NOT to believe it on both the Trident and Storm's End. It makes much more sense to me anyway that the Reach committed a decent force. Even if they weren't committing quite as much as they could, or only had half their houses supporting the war with the rest being neutral, or something like that.

3-4k doesn't solely come from the islands. There are some mainland coastal houses sworn to Dragonstone too. Besides them, the Crownlands is never really made out to be a big source of troops. If you count both Dragonstone and the King's Landing watch and recruits, I think the Crownlands has 20-25k men.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

I never recall him saying anything about only "'a few" Reach soldiers. The only statement I can find in regards to Reach forces at the Trident is GRRM saying that the Reach sent some in addition to laying siege to Storm's End, sapping some of their strength.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Siege_of_Storms_End

Yes, it's an old source. But I haven't seen any real reason NOT to believe it on both the Trident and Storm's End. It makes much more sense to me anyway that the Reach committed a decent force. Even if they weren't committing quite as much as they could, or only had half their houses supporting the war with the rest being neutral, or something like that.

3-4k doesn't solely come from the islands. There are some mainland coastal houses sworn to Dragonstone too. Besides them, the Crownlands is never really made out to be a big source of troops. If you count both Dragonstone and the King's Landing watch and recruits, I think the Crownlands has 20-25k men.

20-25k is fine, it was your original estimate of less than 15,000 which I strongly disagreed with.

Thinking back on it, the Reach only sending a few hundred or an otherwise negligible number may be a wiki invention. However I still hold that it makes sense, not least because we don't know of any Reachmen or Reach houses on the Trident. Plus Mace had no brothers, no adult sons, no notable cousins, and most of the over notable Reachmen were with him at Storm's End, so I don't know who would be raising a large number of men to fight with Rhaegar. The most I can see is 4 or 5k soldiers from the northern Reach being gathered directly from King's Landing.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Not a matter of who the criticism is of, but I think it's likely too. Fertile areas mean lots of farmers and they usually aren't the ones walking off to war, although that is negligible. Army sizes in this series are pretty messed up, but that is the way it is. I think a better measure of strength is offensive and defensive strength.

The Reach is a funny one, since they don't send all that many men to the Field of Fire (or the westerlands sent less and planned to invade the Reach, which would require lots of reachmen dead), and even with the absence of Hightower and vassals, the army is small.

During the Dornish wars (Aegons and Daerons) they both come down the Prince's Pass, which is wide, so large army can enter, but since it is the only place an army can march, it also would make army smaller. No point in half your army arriving a week before the rest. Plus the Dornish tactics, which prevented any clean sweep of Dorne.

In the Dance they are divided, and this no one gets 100'000 extra men. Some are for Rhae, most for Aeg and any amount neutral (of the Tyrells stay neutral, lots of vassals would follow suite). If we knew all 13 Caltrops, things would be clearer, but World never elaborated on that...

Blackfyre they are divided again, even amongst houses.

And in Roberts Rebellion, they clean up, and then move onto a siege. Clearly they don't care to much about the Targaryens. It's a bad habit of the Reach to never fully commit, and especially so the Tyrells.

100'000 is near as large as Australian army today, including their reserve, so yeah, I don't find it likely... 80k, sure thing.

100'000k number is often from the assumption that since the Redwyne fleet can have 20'000 men on it, that House Redwyne contributes 20k men, and since Hightower is more powerful, they contribute even more, which is 45k just from two houses........ Not happening people!

Tyrells have up to 70,000 fielded at the start of ACOK, no reason to believe this is scraping the bottom of the barrel, as I previously stated the lords wouldn't want to send more than 70-80% of their troops off to war. If we assume the houses that did contribute sent 80% of their total strength on average, then that already accounts for 87,500 Reachmen, another 4-5,000 from the Redwynes, 2-3,000 from the Shield Islands (they are never mentioned as having provided troops, and seem to have their entire strength at home in AFFC), 4-5,000 from Hightower (the 3x other bannermen figure might include their vassals, who did send men). That gives them around 100,000 using very conservative figures for those that may not have contributed, and ignoring the fact that Ashford, Caswell, Peake, Roxton, Vyrwell, Merryweather and plenty of others are never mentioned as having men with Renly or at the Blackwater.

So given what we know about the Reach 100,000+ is not implausible.

[Nihlus]

20-25k is fine, it was your original estimate of less than 15,000 which I strongly disagreed with.

Thinking back on it, the Reach only sending a few hundred or an otherwise negligible number may be a wiki invention. However I still hold that it makes sense, not least because we don't know of any Reachmen or Reach houses on the Trident. Plus Mace had no brothers, no adult sons, no notable cousins, and most of the over notable Reachmen were with him at Storm's End, so I don't know who would be raising a large number of men to fight with Rhaegar. The most I can see is 4 or 5k soldiers from the northern Reach being gathered directly from King's Landing.

Less than 15,000 is what I think was actually fielded. 20-25k is everything they could reasonably gather. Including gold cloaks.

Probably. Someone should remove that claim, as the wiki has a lot of unsourced numbers like that. Anyway, Martin said that Tyrell gave a portion of his strength to Rhaegar at the Trident while also discussing how his siege of Storm's End served a strategic purpose. IMO it seems fairly clear that they actually WERE supporting the Targs, and sent at least a decent force to the Trident (it would seem awfully suspicious if they sent less than friggin Dorne). Maybe some of their troops were involved in those unseen skirmishes he mentions too. Until we actually get more info, I don't see a reason to assume that the Reach didn't send much.