A gay man and two gay minors tortured and sodomized for being gay

[Spastic Plastic]

Dark Knight, remember this the next time you hear about an anti-gay hate crime: It's because of latent homophobes (for example, politicians like Eliot Spitzer, who often joked about gays being raped in prison) such as yourself that there still, after all these years, exists a climate where hate and violence against gays is tolerated. It's much like racism, like another poster said. Only that racism is "uncool" nowadays, so you would never admit you're racist, while homophobia is unfortunately still accepted in many circles.

And those annoyed by "limp-wristed gay culture" often forget that they behave like that as a reaction against homophobia.

El Ahraihra, since you're apparently still a kid, maybe you would change your mindset if you actually got to know a gay person.

[kungtotte]

El Ahraihra already knows a gay person. He just doesn't know that they're gay.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

I see. So "annoying SNAY by being a bit camp" is now an atrocity equal to "treating an entire group of people as second-class citizens, denying them rights and torturing them". Good to see some perspective on the issue at last.

To clarify, my post was the one responding to whoever said that people like El-A create a society which encourages gay discrimination. I think parts of gay culture do the same thing.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

I agree that it further divides straights and gays, as then people start relating gay culture to the sexual orientation itself, when the reality is that sexual orientation does not determine your personality characteristics. However, the division is what created the gay subculture in the first place, as it allows them a sense of social in-group belonging. This doesn't manifest in cultures where homosexuality is not discriminated against, as in those cases gays are simply members of society like anyone else, but simply with different sexual preferences.

But I don't think you can really compare what we view as popular gay culture to homophobes. Are both creating division among gays and straights? Yes, but the entire nature and extent is completely different in scope. And like I said, let's not forget that gay culture emerged from the discrimination and homophobia in the first place.

Fair enough. But in this day and age, being gay should not force you to join a (fake) subsection of society. I'm just pointing out that the road to equality requires an end to all division, and gay culture definitely creates division.

[MinDonner]

You're quite right, everyone should act in the same way (like straight people?), otherwise they're just ASKING to be discriminated against.

Seriously, is it really so difficult a concept that people should get the same rights no matter how many showtunes records they own?

[Dark Knight]

Claiming that something is an "opinion" and that all opinions are equal, is simply a cop out for not being able to support your own opinion. Opinion and belief are not integers of equal value. Your belief is simply "gay is abnormal" with the entire supporting basis being "that's what my culture has taught me." You have provided absolutely no support for the reason of this belief, and how it provides anything to society, or benefits our species in anyway. However, the opposite view, is founded in rationality. Believing that being "gay is abnormal" inflicts harm upon millions of individuals, as previously stated, as it sets the foundation for a culture in which gays can be legally, and socially, oppressed, and not accepted. This in turn affects the families and peers of those millions of individuals. If instead of a humanistic view point you want to view it from an economic one, look at it this way: when millions of people are suffering depression, limiting their productivity, and cannot be equally inegrated into a society, the efficiency of that society is simply not at it's optimum.

Belief that gays are abnormal = Emotional and physical suffering of millions of human beings, and the trickle effect to their peers, families, and the societies they live in.

Belief that gays are normal = Acceptance of those millions of human beings, allowing them to live unoppressed, as "normal" members of society, increasing the efficiency of that society both economically, and in terms of allowing other social issues to be focused on, as well as for more resources in addressing those issues.

Seeing as believing that gays are abnormal has only adverse effects for our species, and you are unable to come up with a single beneficial reason, whereas believing that they are normal has more benefits than I can personally ennumerate, your choice is unequivocable idiocy.

This view that "things are how they are," is nothing more than a coward and a lazy man's excuse for dealing with the conditions of reality. If people don't give a shit, then nothing changes. And people with your mindset are the reason things don't change for the better. To address social issues, there has to be social awareness, understanding, and a drive to make those changes. It used to be normal to believe women were inferior to men, that they shouldn't have educations, occupations, or any political influence, be it by voting or holding office. By your opinion, since that was normal, no one should have done anything and just lived with it the way it was. Same for the horrendous discrimination faced by blacks and other people groups. Thank God people were not like you, and actually gave a shit and had the drive to make a social difference, allowing for the radical changes we have experiences in the world. Your apathy contributes nothing, but simply holds back social progression. Discrimination and social issues don't exist simply because of the people at the extreme end of the spectrum who abuse the individuals. Social issues exist because people like yourself hold to bigotry, thereby creating a culture in which prejudices are accepted by the society, and alllowed to flourish. You don't have to teach your kids to beat up gays, all you have to do is teach them that gays are abnormal, or believe it yourself, and that social issue will continue to exist, because of people like you.

Wake the hell up, realize that cultural views are created by the inhabitants of those cultures. Which includes you. Only by changing those views are you going to fix the social issues. Simply basking in ignorance and laziness to social change simply keeps the world in the state it is. If you're perfectly content believing gays are abnormal, and don't care to change that view, nor care for these social issues or their impact, then so be it. Don't contribute to the progression of society. But you know, personally I would rather make society a more accepting, tolerant place for the next generation. If you don't want to contribute to our species, but simply live and die as a biological organism with no beneficial impact to the future generations, go for it. There's no law against being pathetic.

You miss a whole bunch of things in your fevered attempt to persuade me in somehing you don't need to persuade me because I do not disagree with you:

1. I'm not a homophobe, so all your finger pointing at me is quite hilarious and totally wasted on me.

2. I'm not a homophobe, thus I don't know the reasons of homophobes for being what they are. Yes, it may be interesting to find out, maybe in order to convince them otherwise(see point 5), but it has nothing to do with the fact that being a homophobe isn't a crime, moral or otherwise, as much as being homosexual isn't.

3. However I disagree with your reasoning regarding reasons, I can give you an example for a reason why someone may think that being gay is abnormal - the end of the human species. Putting aside artificial fertiliztion, if the majority of people were gay, that would lead to a great decline in birthrate up to the jeopardy of extinction. Why do I put artificial fertiliztion aside? because it's something that wasn't intended by nature. So here is a perfectly beneficial to the species reason to discourage Homosexuality.

4. Why should a person's opinion on something provide anything to the sociaty?? It's his and for him first of all.

5. I do not object any attemps of trying to "convert" people who disagree with one's opinions. I always try to make people see my points of view which I consider morally correct, by my standards of course, and always happy when I succeed in at least putting a pinch of doubt in people with an opposite point of view. I am not saying that "this is it and there is nothing ou can do". what I'm saying is "this is it, and you shouldn't slander people just because they don't agree with you". You can debate and argue, but not denounce others for their opinions, and until such time that you have the majority to make gays as equal as women for example, you shpuld put your efforts toward that objective rather than whining and accusing which avails you little, and makes more damage to your cause than good.

6. I agree completely that gay people should have totally equal rights to non gay people. However, I understand why it's not happening, and respect it - This is what our democratic sociaty stands for, one of which main foundations is the Rule of the Majority. right now the majority doesn't think that gay people should have wqual rights. Do I agree with it? no. Do I respect this? yes.

7. You can't help yourself but use foul language at people just because the ydon't think the way you do. You have zero tolerance for such people, yet you dare call them narrow-minded? As I said, look at the mirror first.

I do hope I clarified myself.

[All-for-Joffrey]

All-for-Joffrey - If a gay person is insecure or feels ashamed or whatever - it's his problem. There are many people who are ashamed of different things that there is no reason to be ashamed of - I don't see them blame others for that.

About judgement - you can judge anyone anyway you want. I'll wrinkle my nose at you for being gay and you'll wrinkle yours at me for being a homophob. We won't be friends, but we won't be enemies.

The current chain of adolescent suicides in high schools across the country beg to differ, and the kid who killed himself at Rutgers. If you actively discriminate against people in such a manner, it's going to affect their sense of self-worth, and for people who have not had the opportunity to escape certain environments and fully come out and become comfortable with themselves, this is a VERY big issue. Look at all the messed up people who were raised in religious households, who were gay and turned out to be wrecks. Anyhow, you completely avoided my point, and the point made by several posters earlier on in the thread: it would in no way be acceptable for you or anyone else to express open displeasure at seeing an ethnic minority but it's ok for you to do so to gays? Being racist is perfectly normal in many social circles as well. I really fail to see how any of this is ethical or civilized. Additionally, what is it about gays that make you (or anyone else) want to wrinkle your nose at them in the first place?

Anyway, homphobia is not just a problem that affects gay people, it affects straights too. I would give this article a read if I were you:

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2010/1006/Homophobia-hurts-straight-men-too

[Dark Knight]

The current chain of adolescent suicides in high schools across the country beg to differ, and the kid who killed himself at Rutgers. If you actively discriminate against people in such a manner, it's going to affect their sense of self-worth, and for people who have not had the opportunity to escape certain environments and fully come out and become comfortable with themselves, this is a VERY big issue. Look at all the messed up people who were raised in religious households, who were gay and turned out to be wrecks. Anyhow, you completely avoided my point, and the point made by several posters earlier on in the thread: it would in no way be acceptable for you or anyone else to express open displeasure at seeing an ethnic minority but it's ok for you to do so to gays? I really fail to see how this is ethical or civilized. Additionally, what is it about gays that make you want to wrinkle your nose at them in the first place?

The kid from Rutgers killed himself because he was humiliated. Yes, the background for it was him being gay, and I don't say it didn't contribute to it, but the offenders involved in the case made a whole lot more than just stating their displeasure at him being gay - they commited an actual crime and violantly intruded his privacy.

Regarding the second part - No gays are no different from anypone - whether it's ethnic minorities, or majorities or whomever - it's all acceptable, as long as it does no harm, and I mean actual harm and not being offended.

And regarding the last sentance - I didn't mean me specifically, it was an example. for more details, read my previous post:-).

Edit - damn typo:-).

Edit 2 - typo on the typo. tha means I write too much:-).

[Ormond]

Fair enough. But in this day and age, being gay should not force you to join a (fake) subsection of society. I'm just pointing out that the road to equality requires an end to all division, and gay culture definitely creates division.

I happen to be a gay person who does not fit many of the stereotypes associated with being gay. I have no interest in fashion, interior decoration, gossip columnists, drag shows, or leather bars.

But I find your use of the word "fake", even in parentheses, to be demeaning and dismissive and lacking in understanding. There will also be a need for specific venues and organizations for gay and lesbian people to meet one another, just as there will always be a need for places and organizations for single heterosexuals to meet. And there will always probably be some aspects of culture that gay and/or lesbian people are attracted to at a higher % on average than straight people are, just as there are things a higher % of men will be attracted to than women. The GLBT community is no more "fake" than any other subsection of society, and shouldn't be dismissed as if it was unimportant.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

You're quite right, everyone should act in the same way (like straight people?), otherwise they're just ASKING to be discriminated against.

Seriously, is it really so difficult a concept that people should get the same rights no matter how many showtunes records they own?

You are talking nonsense. People shouldn't 'act straight' or 'act gay', they should act like themselves.

I happen to be a gay person who does not fit many of the stereotypes associated with being gay. I have no interest in fashion, interior decoration, gossip columnists, drag shows, or leather bars.

But I find your use of the word "fake", even in parentheses, to be demeaning and dismissive and lacking in understanding. There will also be a need for specific venues and organizations for gay and lesbian people to meet one another, just as there will always be a need for places and organizations for single heterosexuals to meet. And there will always probably be some aspects of culture that gay and/or lesbian people are attracted to at a higher % on average than straight people are, just as there are things a higher % of men will be attracted to than women. The GLBT community is no more "fake" than any other subsection of society, and shouldn't be dismissed as if it was unimportant.

Why? Why on earth should the gay/lesbian community have to 'meet' differently to heterosexuals? Why should they be forced to go to their own pubs/bars? Why is it so important for them to be segregated from the rest of society?

For me, being gay is nothing more than a sexual orientation. It should not be turned into a culture. That, imo, is part of the problem.

[Ormond]

You are talking nonsense. People shouldn't 'act straight' or 'act gay', they should act like themselves.

As long as you don't assume that gay and lesbian people whose interests and actions do closely fit the stereotype aren't "acting like themselves." I know very few gay or lesbian people who try to "act gay" when they don't really want to, and it's usually a very short-lived stage in their lives as part of the coming out process.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

As long as you don't assume that gay and lesbian people whose interests and actions do closely fit the stereotype aren't "acting like themselves." I know very few gay or lesbian people who try to "act gay" when they don't really want to, and it's usually a very short-lived stage in their lives as part of the coming out process.

I have to say that perhaps age could be a factor here. I'm 20, and most of the gay people I know came out fairly recently. And as such, they seem to have become completely different people. So much so that in one example, a guy who used to be a really close friend has totally disappeared from my life because I'm not part of his 'culture'. Its retarded. Plain and simple.

Obviously this isn't true of everyone. Not saying that.

[All-for-Joffrey]

The kid from Rutgers killed himself because he was humiliated. Yes, the background for it was him being gay, and I don't say it didn't contribute to it, but the offenders involved in the case made a whole lot more than just stating their displeasure at him being gay - they commited an actual crime and violantly intruded his privacy.

Regarding the second part - No gays are no different from anypone - whether it's ethnic minorities, or majorities or whomever - it's all acceptable, as long as it does no harm, and I mean actual harm and not being offended.

And regarding the last sentance - I didn't mean me specifically, it was an example. for more details, read my previous post:-).

Edit - damn typo:-).

Edit 2 - typo on the typo. tha means I write too much:-).

The mere fact that you think this sort of behavior does not do any harm tells me that not only are you not gay but (forgive me if I'm making inaccurate assumptions) you do most likely not identify as any sort of minority at all. This sort of contemptuous, discriminatory behavior IS very harmful. If they filmed him having sex with a woman do you really think he would have killed himself? No, I highly doubt it, and to pretend otherwise is to live in a fantasy dream world. You also failed to address the countless kids who killed themselves in high schools and middle schools, not only in the past month, but in the past several years. This sort of attitude, especially because it's so pervasive, really fucks people up. In other words, it makes them feel like shit and, in the worst cases, want to kill themselves. By now it's clear to me that your privileged heterosexuality prevents you from grasping this concept but I would urge you to try your best to do so, at least on an intellectual level. To deny otherwise indicates a deficiency on your part between determining correlations of cause and effect.

[TerraPrime]

What the hell?

How is it that a thread that started ostensibly about a horrendous act against a gay man (it is not clear from the story that the 2 teenagers were truly gay) get turned into a thread that becomes a de facto request for justification for being gay? People, don't let trolls like El-Ah distract you. In almost every possible thread about gay issues, he pops in to announce his delight in thwarting equal rights for gay people or his dismay at progresses made on behalf of us. He simply cannot bear to have people forget that he's against homosexuality. If there's a bowl of gay cheerio, he wouldn't be able to resist unzipping his pants and peeing on it. Why? I don't know. But it is apparently a point of pride or something for him to stand as someone who opposes normalization of homosexuality in America.

As with most trolls, just don't feed them.

Re: SNAY

So much so that in one example, a guy who used to be a really close friend has totally disappeared from my life because I'm not part of his 'culture'. Its retarded. Plain and simple.

Maybe he just got tired of dealing with your anti-gay shit?

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Re: SNAY

Maybe he just got tired of dealing with your anti-gay shit?

Seriously, show me my anti-gay shit. I'd love to improve myself as a person.

[TerraPrime]

Seriously, show me my anti-gay shit. I'd love to improve myself as a person.

It's rather simple: you think that the existence of a gay subculture is a detriment, and you have contempt for LBGT people who do identify with various elements of the subculture.

But really, this thread is hardly about you. Go start a new thread on "Help SNAY be a better person" and we'll all chip in to help.

[Dark Knight]

The mere fact that you think this sort of behavior does not do any harm tells me that not only are you not gay but (forgive me if I'm making inaccurate assumptions) you do most likely not identify as any sort of minority at all. This sort of contemptuous, discriminatory behavior IS very harmful. If they filmed him having sex with a woman do you really think he would have killed himself? No, I highly doubt it, and to pretend otherwise is to live in a fantasy dream world. You also failed to address the countless kids who killed themselves in high schools and middle schools, not only in the past month, but in the past several years. This sort of attitude, especially because it's so pervasive, really fucks people up. In other words, it makes them feel like shit and, in the worst cases, want to kill themselves. By now it's clear to me that your privileged heterosexuality prevents you from grasping this concept but I would urge you to try your best to do so, at least on an intellectual level. To deny otherwise indicates a deficiency on your part between determining correlations of cause and effect.

Actually, I can relate to gays as much as any non gay person can. I am an ethnic minority world wise - a Jew - and If I lived in any other country but Israel I sure would have encountered countless racist comments if nothing more extreme. Additionally, I am a minority in Israel as I support total seperation between religion and state which doesn't exist here.

The problem is not that people think that being gay is abnormal. The problem is that people are cruel. They allow themselves to treat other people like dirt just because they are different and this is true about any difference and not specifically about sexual tendency.

And yes, I understand your point - If people tell you enough times that being what you are is wrong, it can break you. But what is the solution? make people change their mindset? you are welcome to try and I wish all the success in the world. I will prefer to teach my children not to give a fig about what other people think about them, not succumb to pressure and follow their hearts rather than trust on your success.

[Lord Mord]

DK,

Didn't get the duty thing - what duty is it?

Your duty to respect the dignity of mankind. When you engage in prejudice, you are in gross dereliction of duty.

Again, you can't say that something, or anything, is a "moral" crime, because different people have different morals.

And morals of prejudice are wrong.

You should accept the fact that not everybody think the way you do. If people had that onderstanding and accepted that, things would have been much better in the regard of human relationships...

What does that acceptance look like? In the absence of an explanation, it sounds like what you're saying is, "please be quiet, so we can enjoy our malice in peace". Why should anyone do that? How does that advance any human flourishing?

What does it matter what's my reason - yes it's a reason, not an excuse - for hating swimming? it doesn't matter. Exactly as it doesn't matter why somebody is a homophob.

I'm sorry, are you planning on outlawing swimming, or on making laws to recognize swimmers as something less than full citizens? Or are you suggesting that gay sex has suffered no more invidious discrimination than swimmers have? Or are you suggesting that one's sexual identity is not typically of a deeper and more fundamental nature than one's athletic identity?

If they are not trying to change your sexual tendencies, why should you try and change their opinions or beliefs?

Because their opinions and beliefs are corrupt, either by intention or by neglect. It may be uncomfortable, but it is the cost of ignoring their duty.

Why can't we all just live together peacefully without trying to change people?

If everybody valued each other as people, then there would be no need to change anything. This may come as a surprise to you, but I'm actually a bit sick of being devalued for a choice which harms no one. If I were a swimmer, and you hated me in the same way that gays suffer the hate of even "quiet" homophobes, I'd insist that value be changed, too, and I would still be right. What difference does it make in your life which sport I play, or for which team?

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

It's rather simple: you think that the existence of a gay subculture is a detriment, and you have contempt for LBGT people who do identify with various elements of the subculture.

But really, this thread is hardly about you. Go start a new thread on "Help SNAY be a better person" and we'll all chip in to help.

You are full of shit.

The definition of a gay person is someone attracted to a member of their own sex. I have no problem with this whatsoever.

Disliking gay culture for whatever reason does not make you anti-gay. Moreover, its not as if I even dislike those who take part in that culture. I hate the culture itself. And fuck you for trying to judge me and my life over the internet.

[Lord Mord]

Snay,

Are you not listening to yourself?

I find gay people who like to strongly accentuate eccentricities and deliberately seperate themselves from society just because they fuck men annoying as hell.

They are as much to blame as ignorants like El-A.

So, just like women who dress "a certain way," which, of course is not really subject to objective definition, are asking to be raped, these guys were asking to be raped and tortured? And if not that, then how are they to blame, exactly? But, moreover, this appears to be in gross incongruence with this exhortation:

Just BE YOURSELF.

I don't see any evidence that anyone has behaved other than as himself, and yet this atrocity happened anyway. In fact, by the gays in this case in particular being themselves, you suggest above that they are to blame for what happened to them. So, which is it? Do you prefer the violence, or were you lying when you said you want everyone to be himself?

Truth is, gay men (I won't go into the lesbian side of things, simply don't know enough of them) are very similar to straight men in all things accept sexuality, yet for some reason they LOVE to play up the fact that they are gay. Its like their sexuality defines who they are as people. I find it ridiculous.

What difference does that make? It seems to me that if you're uncomfortable, and that's the only problem, then it's your problem, right? I mean, why are other people responsible for how you feel?

Fair enough. But in this day and age, being gay should not force you to join a (fake) subsection of society. I'm just pointing out that the road to equality requires an end to all division, and gay culture definitely creates division.

Do you have any examples of anyone being coerced? And if the subsection exists, how can it also be fake? More to the point, what are the criteria for it's being somehow "more real"?