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MMA 11 - Beatdown after the BELL!


Horus Ex Machina

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I called it too, just not in-thread. Buddies thought I was insane, but they're all of the same mindset as Stego [whom I kept thinking of during the fight and couldn't stop chuckling] Can hardly wait to read what Will has to say about everything...

Most of the fights went as I figured, except for Shields/Kampmann and Cote/Lawlor fight. The hell is going on with Cote the last year or so?

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http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/43280-mma-2010-why-always-the-fighting/page__st__360

It think this is the type of fight that might just test him in some of the areas that his rather short fight career hasn't been able to yet. First off, I see Brock as a wrestler first and foremost. Just like Sherk, Kos, Fitch, Tito, etc and so forth. And one of the first things that a wrestler learns to do well in the standup game is offensive boxing (every guy knows sort of how to throw a punch to some extent) and one of the last is defensive boxing.

He and Cain may both have that same weakness. Cain showed that weakness against Kongo but compensated for it with his takedowns. Brock sort of showed the same against Carwin. They are both strong wrestlers, but Brock showed against Carwin that he can handle other wrestlers. If I'm Cain, I use defensive wrestling to keep it standing and test Brock on the feet. Cain has holes in his boxing defense too, but he's not fighting a pure striker, he's fighting a wrestler who can punch a bit. Big difference there. That's gotta be his goal. I'm leaning Cain in this one. Brock's kryptonite may be a wrestler who's got good enough takedown defense to neutralize his own wrestling but can strike better than the average wrestler in the standup.

We know Brock is strong. We know his base is wrestling. We know from his days at Minnesota that he was a very good wrestler. But we don't know how consistent his takedowns will be against a wrestler who really doesn't want to be taken down is. He didn't take Randy down, he knocked him down with a punch. He didn't take Carwin down per se before the finish, it was defensive grappling and a reversal. He's taken guys like Mir and Herring down, they are NOT wrestlers at all. We know that Brock can be hurt in the standup and punches will get through bc defensive boxing isn't something that you just pick up overnight. So at some point, sprawl and brawl tactics might work against Brock if you can outpunch him in the standup. The only question for a guy like Cain, who is an experienced wrestler in his own right but doesn't have the calibre pedigree of Brock, is if you get the knockdown can you resist the temptation of overcommitting to the ground and pound for the finish, bc it will be too easy for Brock to recover and use his defensive wrestling to sweep and get in an offensive position.

This is a fight that will depend on the tactics that Cain uses and AKA is a good camp for this. Brock, I think, is going to come out and use his best weapons in the same manner he always does. His speed, his strength, his top-position wrestling and some counter-grappling. He doesn't have to worry about the sub. He only has to worry about gnp which means he doesn't have to worry at all. Cain's a good wrestler, but his titles came in Ju-co division wrestling while Brock was taking on guys like Wes Hand of Iowa. But Cain is a good enough wrestler to keep it standing, and good enough to beat him on the feet. And unlike Brock, I think he will come in with a gameplan and more than likely stick to it.

If I'm right, then a loss like this might only make Brock better, bc he has DW and everyone around him telling him how great he is right now, and some of it's true but some of it isn't. He's going to be more vulnerable now when he's still trying to do the same thing and over-rely on his wrestling to compensate his other holes. A loss here will get him the fire to bring in a guy to his camp, bc Minn. Martial Arts is primarily wrestlers, very few striking coaches that I know of there. Or maybe even get Brock to go to Boston and train with Dellagrotte, or even Shawn Tompkins to fill out his defensive holes. A loss might force Brock to fill in the holes.

Because, when I look at wrestlers striking, there are different levels of proficiency that they tend to achieve. Sean Sherk, for example, is actually a very serviceable striker. He throws crisp punches, he's disciplined defensively even if his head doesn't move much, and his footwork is very good. His problem is biological, he inherited T-Rex arms. Kos, has good head movement and footwork, but he doesn't move intelligently all the time. Couture, has a background in boxing from the Army so his head movement is serviceable and he uses alot of the inside dirty boxing tactics, but they weren't really boxing when he was knocked down. It was a bit of a mini-scramble that was somewhat on the feet but Randy was also a bit off-balance. He doesn't have the best footwork of the strikers. Taking the context of what was done and how it was done is what I do when I look at fighters and fights. It's not just one thing but the context of how it was done and why it happened.

When I say that Brock can punch a bit, what I mean is that, he has good technique when he throws a punch, doesn't really telegraph, and throws with lots of power but that's about it. He's not going to feint a punch or set up any combos. His jabs come in singles and he doesn't go two through six very much if at all. So while you do have to worry and not get hit with Brocks punches, you also don't have to worry about him mixing any variations into his punching routine, it's pretty straight forward. You know what you're going to get. If you don't let him take you out of your routine, then you can frustrate him on the feet so long as you can keep it there and avoid his straight punches.

Defensively, he moves forward and backward alot. He looks pretty stiff, doesn't move his head. As a wrestler, I would think that he might oneday try using the Cuban, half-wrestling/half-boxing stance that will allow him to change levels rather quickly. Other top wrestlers like Mo Lawal, Kos to some extent, Tyron Woodly seem to use adaptations of it from time to time. Makes you worry about their striking and wrestling simultaneously and so they can't set defensively. I'm just saying that through six fights and bc of that reletively few looks and variations of opponents, MMA fans aren't critical enough of potential weaknesses bc they're so in awe of his percieved strengths. He's had to short of a career for us to know whether or not he's unbeatable. I'm not convinced that he is at this point bc there are clear avenues of victory against him.

It's all about the gameplan. Personally I didn't think that Carwin would have been as successful against Brock as he was. Carwin's big and strong and has pretty good hands, better than Brocks, but he's only been recently handling top competition and mistakes will kill him in ways that his previous opponents might not exploit.

Really?

And how much did that strength help Marius Pudzianowski, who's much stronger physically than even Brock, against Tim Sylvia? Strength alone does not win fights or wrestling matches and if you'd done an extensive amount of either or watched either you would know that. Brock, for all his strength, would not even be here if it wasn't for his close to 20 years of competitive amateur wrestling chops combined with that strength plus agility and conditioning for a man his size. Things that he got from wrestling. His strength is a factor, which must be taken into account, but there's a reason that the sport has yet to be taken over by strongmen and bodybuilders. They won't win.

Bobby Lashley is strong too, but the difference between him and Brock is that Brock wrestled D1 and Lashley was an NAIA wrestler, different levels. Brock will not throw around Cain for the same reason that he wasn't able to simply throw around an even smaller Randy Couture. It's because at some point technique becomes a factor. I've grappled with much stronger, much bigger guys who had no idea what they were doing and they felt weak to me. Remember when "Public Enemy #1" Matt Hughes made the outrageous statement that he could wrestle a 230lb man and make them feel weak. As much as I despise the man, the principle behind that statement is sound. Brock will himself admit that back when they were both in the WWE, Olympic gold-medallist and about 230lb Kurt Angle pinned Brock when they were wrestling backstage. How?? Bc despite being an NCAA champ there is a huge skill gulf between NCAA champ and even being on the US men's Olympic team. Brock has size and skill, but is it enough to make him the overwhelming favorite you seem to think it will?

If you're simply going to look at the most abstract variables and prognosticate the fight and the fight game in general, then you're not really understanding what wins fights. There are reasons why certain aspects of Brock's fights went certain ways. This is going to be a stiffer test of the spaces in between those aspects than many of you realize. I can't wait for the card. It should be interesting.

This is why I thought it was silly that Frank Mir thought that packing on some muscle would help neutralize Brock's wrestling. Instead of spending all that time in the weight room, he'd have been better served going to Iowa and hitting the mats with the Iowa wrestling team and learning how to stop takedowns, which he's never been great at.

Ppl are still in the mindset and accustomed to thinking of Brock as just really really really strong guy who was in the WWE. I think of him as a really really strong Minnesota State Gopher who was a two-time DI champ. That's why big strong Dave Batista will get smashed in MMA in quick order. He's no Lashley, he's no Lesnar. He has no combat sports experience. If Brock beats Cain, there will be a real reason, and it won't be bc he's really really really really really strong.

BTW, Penn did not lose to GSP simply bc GSP was bigger. GSP was bigger in the first fight and it was much closer. BJ lost more emphatically than the first time. bc GSP's approach to MMA moved closer to a wrestling base than a standup base for that fight.

Thiago Alves probably had 10 lbs on both Fitch and GSP after rehydrating and that didn't help him worth a damn bc he can't stop a takedown or fight a top-position wrestler from his back.

Yeah, I'm not going to be easy to talk to for awhile. The only place where I'm pissed is that I had already made up my mind to put cash on Cain as the dog in this fight, but there was so much family business today that I not only couldn't get on BetUS to place a bet, I missed the entire card. I did tell my latino buddies that I thought "their boy" would take it and I explained the same points that I explained on here. Since I'm so in awe of myself and I don't have money to show for it, damn it you're going to see it again.

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I think that Jake Shields is showing signs of maybe not being able to be himself at WW anymore. When he moved up to fight at MW he really moved up and was a true MW. Going back may end up hurting him too much. We'll see for sure after his second fight which I hope isn't GSP quite yet. It also could have been Octagon jitters. Rampage showed the same in his first fight.

There was one more pt I wanted to add on the concept of Brock "throwing around" Cain. Brock wasn't that type of fighter. He was a freestyle wrestler. Not a greco-roman or Muay Thai guy. No where in his repertoire are a bunch of upper-body throws. It's just not in his game. He goes for power doubles and singles. That was another thing that was telling me that ppl were just not seeing this fight the right way. Azor Ahai, me and a few other ppl may be the only ones who were actually looking at how Brock fights and how he wins fights and saying, "hey look at this." I'm pissed about the money that I could have had. But family comes, blah blah blah.

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So. The new heavyweight champion is an AMERICAN FROM SALINAS CALIFORNIA. NORTHERN CALIFORNIA EVEN.

Just to clear that up.

My next MMA hero is whoever takes Cain down. Carwin, Mir, Lesnar, Stego. Doesn't matter. The only thing I'd enjoy more is seeing Dana White getting knocked the fuck out.

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I heard about that. Mark Calaway must have heard about the deal that Dave Bautista got and is angling his way into one. Seriously, alot of wrestlers, Calaway being one, are bit MMA enthusiasts and have incorporated it into some of their fighting gimmicks. Bill Goldberg owns an MMA gym, Calloway, Angle and a few others. That said, they are way too green, old and beat up to get anything going. Brock, and to a lesser extent Lashley, had a leg up on all of them in that they didn't do the kayfaybee stuff long, they had backgrounds in the real stuff, and they're relatively young. Shelton Benjamin would be another great convert but he has no interest in MMA at all.

But one thing that alot of MMA fans don't realize is that, outside of Brazil, MMA's development has been alway tied very closely to pro wrestling. MMA in Japan was almost entirely started by pro wrestling promoters and competed in by converted catch wrestlers who continued to pro-wrestle on the side before the UFC was thought up. It's nice to see the interest from some of these guys and you always will wonder. eg I'm sure that a Pat Miletich could have turned Calaway into a much better HW than Timmeh.

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That was another thing that was telling me that ppl were just not seeing this fight the right way. Azor Ahai, me and a few other ppl may be the only ones who were actually looking at how Brock fights and how he wins fights and saying, "hey look at this."

The odds weren't that stacked against Cain winning, according to how people were betting. But congrats Nostradamus. You called one fight.

But I'll eat crow and say I thought Brock was going to beat Cain pretty handily. I thought that Brocks standup would improve since his last couple fights, but he looked terrible. No thought of even trying to counter, but just shelling up and moving backwards in a straight line, which made it easy pickings for Cain (and Carwin too, before he gassed). No one really likes getting hit, but Brock seems scared to death of it. Classic bully mentality, I guess. He also needs to study how GSP transitions from the standup to takedowns, too.

Think Shields needs another tuneup fight. GSP would destroy last night's version of him.

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http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/43280-mma-2010-why-always-the-fighting/page__st__360

Yeah, I'm not going to be easy to talk to for awhile. The only place where I'm pissed is that I had already made up my mind to put cash on Cain as the dog in this fight, but there was so much family business today that I not only couldn't get on BetUS to place a bet, I missed the entire card. I did tell my latino buddies that I thought "their boy" would take it and I explained the same points that I explained on here. Since I'm so in awe of myself and I don't have money to show for it, damn it you're going to see it again.

In general if you have a fight where one fighter seems to be quicker, stronger, and has better wrestling, that fighter will win a vast majority of the time. Regradless of odds we live in a world where Serra KO'd GSP in the first round, so clearly anything can happen, in any fight. I didn't get a chance to see this fight card so I'm not really sure how it all went down. I knew that Lesnar had inferior striking but for most fights it doesn't seem like that matters too much, generally. It's sounding like Lesnars striking was enough inferior that it did actually make a difference.

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The odds weren't that stacked against Cain winning, according to how people were betting. But congrats Nostradamus. You called one fight.

Bow down. :bowdown: With that said, Cain was only like +150 so I didn't actually lose much money by not having time to place a bet on this one. But the way ppl were talking about Brock v. Cain on forums and in the gym I would have thought he'd be around +250. Either way it would have been a nice chunk of change.

Besides which, I call quite a few fights thanks.

But I'll eat crow and say I thought Brock was going to beat Cain pretty handily. I thought that Brocks standup would improve since his last couple fights, but he looked terrible. No thought of even trying to counter, but just shelling up and moving backwards in a straight line, which made it easy pickings for Cain (and Carwin too, before he gassed). No one really likes getting hit, but Brock seems scared to death of it. Classic bully mentality, I guess. He also needs to study how GSP transitions from the standup to takedowns, too.

You're right, GSP sets up his takedowns with good kickboxing and he's alot more adept at upper-body throws than a free-style guy like Brock. The limited manner of takedowns in Brock's arsenal was always going to catch up to him just like it caught up to Tito. Like I said before, he could benefit from a different stance like Mo Lawal and other freestyle wrestlers use which is a hybrid boxing/wrestling stance that puts them lower to the ground, is still able to engage in standup, but hides lower-body shoots better. He also needs to learn rudimentary defensive boxing. I don't think it was so much that he was afraid of getting hit as much as he had no idea what to do when a guy came at him with a complete standup arsenal besides moving backwards. Not even basic lateral movement, not even basic head movement. It was either move backwards or get hit over and over and KTFO'd.

In general if you have a fight where one fighter seems to be quicker, stronger, and has better wrestling, that fighter will win a vast majority of the time. Regradless of odds we live in a world where Serra KO'd GSP in the first round, so clearly anything can happen, in any fight. I didn't get a chance to see this fight card so I'm not really sure how it all went down. I knew that Lesnar had inferior striking but for most fights it doesn't seem like that matters too much, generally. It's sounding like Lesnars striking was enough inferior that it did actually make a difference.

What happened was that the holes in Brock's game became glaring. He actually did get some top time on Cain, but this time he was trying to hold down another wrestler who wasn't just going to curl up ala Frank Mir. Brock's style of gnp has a few holes in it; he doesn't worry about body control or positioning at all while he's trying to finish a fighter. This is something most wrestlers in MMA tend to do well, and what also a big part of what makes them seem boring. A guy who knows what he's doing like Cain, will simply escape. Big problem there.

He also didn't seem to have a manner of pacing himself or allowing that his usual gameplan of rushing in for the takedown might not work and to conserve something for the latter rounds. Minnesota Martial Arts isn't really known for their game-planning, look at some of Sherk's recent fights. This was not a fluke in the same vein as Serra vs GSP. GSP is a complete fighter, Brock isn't. Not that Brock can't get there, but he needed to lose first to force him to form a better rounded game plan. I really think he needs to get out and train with a camp like Jackson's.

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I know it's very easy to say after the fact but I really couldn't see anything other than a Cain victory.

People have to undestand that Brock's MMA career is in its infancy and he still has so much to learn. Look at his previous fights post Herring - Mir beat him, Couture had him in trouble and was out foxing him until age caught up with him, Mir again had him in trouble but threw a stupid knee which Brock caught and Carwin was beating ten bells of shit out of him until he tired dramatically.

If Brock is sensible (and if Dana will let his cash cow leave the limelight for a while), he'll go away and work on his cardio and then come back against 2 or 3 lesser opponents, hand picked by his team to offer differing problems.

Brock made some really basic errors out there against Cain (not least the insane game plan of charging out like a lunatic). He should have kept the pace to a crawl and tried to make it a wrestling match. When he was on top, he all but offered Cain a hand to help him to his feet by taking all his weight off Cain when seeking to improve his position. You don't stand a trade with someone much more accomplished on the feet and that has quicker hands than you. If you have suspect cardio, don't set a red hot pace.

I believe that Brocks only avenue to victory lay in a tentative opening and then exploding to get Cain down on his back. He then needed to put his weight through Cain and pick his moments to improve position while deilvering Explosive G&P in bursts to conserve energy.

Even Cain's cardion would have been tested with 20 stone pressing down on you and those massive arms raining down on his face and body.

Having said that, Cain fought the fight he needed to and I think his speed won the day. Lesnar just isn't used to heavyweights being able to scramble like middleweights.

This could be a long (and boring :P) title reign.

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He also needs to learn rudimentary defensive boxing. I don't think it was so much that he was afraid of getting hit as much as he had no idea what to do when a guy came at him with a complete standup arsenal besides moving backwards. Not even basic lateral movement, not even basic head movement. It was either move backwards or get hit over and over and KTFO'd.

I absolutely agree that he has to learn basic defensive boxing, but I think it's a combination of both. To me, there's no question in my mind that he doesn't like to get hit, and in turn, it affects his boxing defense. He's extremely flinchy and when he shells up like that, he gives himself no openings to counter, making it that much easier for guys like Cain and Carwin to keep teeing off on him. Not that I consider myself an elite fighter or anything, but maybe the first two things I was taught as a kid were: 1. Never back up in a straight line. It's all about angles. And 2. Never let him get consecutive shots at you without throwing something back in return. He won't be nearly as eager to fire away at you if he's eating punches too.

I don't doubt that Brock is bringing in top flight coaches, but he doesn't seem to have picked up on either. Also, I'm not sure he even knows the meaning of the words "head movement" with that big fat melon of his.

Minnesota Martial Arts isn't really known for their game-planning, look at some of Sherk's recent fights. This was not a fluke in the same vein as Serra vs GSP. GSP is a complete fighter, Brock isn't. Not that Brock can't get there, but he needed to lose first to force him to form a better rounded game plan. I really think he needs to get out and train with a camp like Jackson's.

Last I heard, he wasn't a part of M-MMA and dumped Greg Nelson. He's just running his own camp at his house. Which may also be part of the problem. No one has the authority to tell him he HAS TO do something. Probably the same problem as BJ.

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I absolutely agree that he has to learn basic defensive boxing, but I think it's a combination of both. To me, there's no question in my mind that he doesn't like to get hit, and in turn, it affects his boxing defense. He's extremely flinchy and when he shells up like that, he gives himself no openings to counter, making it that much easier for guys like Cain and Carwin to keep teeing off on him. Not that I consider myself an elite fighter or anything, but maybe the first two things I was taught as a kid were: 1. Never back up in a straight line. It's all about angles. And 2. Never let him get consecutive shots at you without throwing something back in return. He won't be nearly as eager to fire away at you if he's eating punches too.

There's truth to this. The first key to good boxing is to stand and face your opponent. Turning away from pressure or simply backing away kills any attempt to appropriately defend. That's why alot of MMA sparring sessions become wars sometimes. Alot of coaches will tell you to go through 1 minute sessions where you just trade punches to get you used to being in the phonebooth. If you fear getting hit then technique can sometime go out the window.

I don't doubt that Brock is bringing in top flight coaches, but he doesn't seem to have picked up on either. Also, I'm not sure he even knows the meaning of the words "head movement" with that big fat melon of his.

Last I heard, he wasn't a part of M-MMA and dumped Greg Nelson. He's just running his own camp at his house. Which may also be part of the problem. No one has the authority to tell him he HAS TO do something. Probably the same problem as BJ.

This is what I admire about Randy. His name is on the door of the gym yet he still has a reputation for listening to his trainers and taking off his "boss hat". I hadn't realized he had left Minn MMA, which makes alot of his holes make sense.

Right now he has alot of the same holes that Tito's always had, limited ways of getting a fight (lower body shoots with limited setup approach) to his comfort zone and porous boxing defense. At this point it's clear that Tito is too far gone to ever improve in those areas, but Brock can still make it up and he has alot more natural gifts. But Brock doesn't strike me as a guy who can humble himself enough to make that Couture-like disconnect which is why he definitely should not be running his own camp. Like I said before, this loss may be te best thing to happen to him. He needed to be humbled in order to improve his game.

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It'll be interesting to see how much of Brock's attitude is showmanship and how much of that ego is true-to-life. There's an innate ability to acknowledge their own limitations that great athletes have to possess in a sport with so many nuances and variations so they can work to at least neutralize them if turning those areas into strengths is beyond their ability level.

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It was clear that Brock does not like getting punched in the face, he turtles up fast (same thing happened in the Carwin fight).

Which is understandable, he hasn't been punched in the face as often as most fighters, and you never know how you will react until it starts happening.

Is there any way to really prepare/train for taking a beating?

Heh

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