Rethinking Stannis

[Jon Targaryen]

I'm not convinced Dany and Stannis will even meet. I think he may die facing the Others. If not, I think he turns into the next Night's King and Jon and Dany and maybe Bran have to put him down.

[Yakman]

I'm not convinced Dany and Stannis will even meet. I think he may die facing the Others. If not, I think he turns into the next Night's King and Jon and Dany and maybe Bran have to put him down.

He'll be a Night's King of a sort, that's certain. I think the Nightfort and Stannis have a lot to offer each other.

[Grumpygoat]

I'm not convinced Dany and Stannis will even meet. I think he may die facing the Others. If not, I think he turns into the next Night's King and Jon and Dany and maybe Bran have to put him down.

I'm inclined to say the same. I want to see the meeting, however. And whether he turns out like Renly or actually puts his money where his mouth is.

[Guest Other-in-law]

He admitted that it was a hard chosing, his king or his kin, and I think deep down, he really knows that by his ethos he made the wrong choice. If he lives to meet Dany, he will have the chance to get it right this time.

I agree that he's doomed, but beyond that the only strong feeling of how his doom will play itself out is that by the end, Davos will be the only one still loyal to him.

[Conor]

Stannis is doomed. Melisandre will use him until he is of no use and move on to the next candidate. Pity because Stannis is a just man if nothing else.

[Yakman]

He admitted that it was a hard chosing, his king or his kin, and I think deep down, he really knows that by his ethos he made the wrong choice. If he lives to meet Dany, he will have the chance to get it right this time.

whatever. He'll break before he bends. You just want a happy ending and are blissfully hoping that Martin gives it to you. But deep down inside, you know that Stannis will be the death of Dany. Look into your heart, you know it to be true.

I agree that he's doomed, but beyond that the only strong feeling of how his doom will play itself out is that by the end, Davos will be the only one still loyal to him.

Stannis inspires tremendous loyalty in his men. Their battle cry is 'STANNIS!' for crying out loud, not Baratheon, or Dragonstone, or Ours is the Fury, or anything else that's served as a battlecry for the other Kings of Westeros. Everyone respects and fears him--Tywin Lannister was more concerned about Stannis AFTER the Blackwater than he was about Renly when he was marching up the Roseroad with 80,000 men.

Do not think that Stannis will bend for a dragonspawn.

[Child of the Forest]

whatever. He'll break before he bends. You just want a happy ending and are blissfully hoping that Martin gives it to you. But deep down inside, you know that Stannis will be the death of Dany. Look into your heart, you know it to be true.

Stannis inspires tremendous loyalty in his men. Their battle cry is 'STANNIS!' for crying out loud, not Baratheon, or Dragonstone, or Ours is the Fury, or anything else that's served as a battlecry for the other Kings of Westeros. Everyone respects and fears him--Tywin Lannister was more concerned about Stannis AFTER the Blackwater than he was about Renly when he was marching up the Roseroad with 80,000 men.

Do not think that Stannis will bend for a dragonspawn.

Stannis will not bend, and so Stannis will be broken. Whether by Dany or by the Others or by Melisandre's treachery is the only question in my mind.

[Yakman]

Stannis will not bend, and so Stannis will be broken. Whether by Dany or by the Others or by Melisandre's treachery is the only question in my mind.

Jon. Jon will kill Stannis.

[Guest Other-in-law]

whatever. He'll break before he bends. You just want a happy ending and are blissfully hoping that Martin gives it to you.

Oh, gee, thanks for telling me what I want, that's so helpful. You must be fun to live with.

In fact, I see Stannis mad, broken, and abandoned by everyone but Davos, like King Lear and his fool, full of regret at how he screwed everything up....a happy ending just like one of Sansa's songs.

But deep down inside, you know that Stannis will be the death of Dany. Look into your heart, you know it to be true.

My advice to you is to read the series a Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R.Martin. By doing so, may possibly obtain a clue to what you are talking about. In it you will find an episode where Daenerys receives visions from the Undying of Qarth about a blue eyed King who casts no shadow, followed by a description of her as Mother of Dragons, Slayer of Lies.

Stannis inspires tremendous loyalty in his men.

That must be the reason why none of the Stormlords would rise for him in the beginning, and the overwhelming majority that he later gained so cheerfully switched their allegiance after the Blackwater.

Do not think that Stannis will bend for a dragonspawn.

Is there even one solitary example where Stannis has used that phrase? It sounds like you are conflating him with his brother Robert.

[Yakman]

Oh, gee, thanks for telling me what I want, that's so helpful. You must be fun to live with.

I bring joy and smiles to everyone.

In fact, I see Stannis mad, broken, and abandoned by everyone but Davos, like King Lear and his fool, full of regret at how he screwed everything up....a happy ending just like one of Sansa's songs.

That's a good one... hadn't thought of it like that. Well put.

My advice to you is to read the series a Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R.Martin. By doing so, may possibly obtain a clue to what you are talking about. In it you will find an episode where Daenerys receives visions from the Undying of Qarth about a blue eyed King who casts no shadow, followed by a description of her as Mother of Dragons, Slayer of Lies.

And there's a bit about a white haired, bronze skinned man burning down a city. Some of those visions are of things that will not come to pass. I don't see Stannis lying to anyone, either.

That must be the reason why none of the Stormlords would rise for him in the beginning, and the overwhelming majority that he later gained so cheerfully switched their allegiance after the Blackwater.

They weren't HIS men. They were Baratheon-loyalists, and when the tided turned, they joined with the other side. Note also the would-have-been battle at Storm's End. Before the battle, Renly's host numbered several times that of Stannis'. Renly's predicted that half or more of Stannis' army would switch sides during the night. That didn't happen. None of Stannis' men switched sides before the battle--which if you were reading the book you'd notice was about to commence when Renly was murdered. Moreover, the Castellon at Storm's End has continued to hold out, as had the Castellon of Dragonstone before Loras threw half of Tommen's army at the walls.

Is there even one solitary example where Stannis has used that phrase? It sounds like you are conflating him with his brother Robert.

I just like the word :cool:

[mormont]

I don't see Stannis lying to anyone, either.

Oh, surely to himself, just a bit?

However, I think the point of that vision is that Stannis is a lie: a false king, and/or a false Azor Ahai Reborn. Mel has tried to make him fit the prophecies by deceptions like the false Lightbringer.

[Guest Other-in-law]

And there's a bit about a white haired, bronze skinned man burning down a city. Some of those visions are of things that will not come to pass. I don't see Stannis lying to anyone, either.

That's a very poor analogy. While the Stallion who mounts the World prophecy of the Crones of the Dosh Khaleen are indeed an example of a false (or failed) prophecy, such is specifically not the case with the Undying vision you cite. The image of Rhaego was for identification purpose, along with vignettes of Rhaegar and Viserys, immediately followed by the summation Mother of Dragons, Daughter of Death. The vision isn't prophesying that Rhaego will somehow conquer cities even though he's already dead, it's showing the losses that Dany has suffered and how (as far as she knows) she is the last surviving member of her family. Showing three dead guys doesn't equate to a prediciton that they won't die.

On the other hand the vision of Stannis is specifically linked to a predicition that she will expose the falshoods that he is either advocating or accomodating, like him being Azor Ahai reborn. He may not speak that lie himself, but he's been lying to himself for quite a while. Technically normative questions like "is it right to sacrifice my innocent nephew to some fire demon" can't be lies, but in this case they effectively are because Mr Morality Stannis knows damn well that it isn't right, because deep down he doesn't believe it.

They weren't HIS men. They were Baratheon-loyalists

You don't think he made them swear fealty to him? He sure as hell would have considered them his men, but they joined his Narrow Sea lord Celtigar in turning their cloaks.

Castellon at Storm's End has continued to hold out, as had the Castellon of Dragonstone before Loras threw half of Tommen's army at the walls.

Some of his king's men are loyal to Stannis personally, his Queen's men are ambitious and unscrupluous or religious fanatics, but the overwhelming bulk who served him have abandoned him when they it was the best option.

[Yakman]

That's a very poor analogy.

On the other hand the vision of Stannis is specifically linked to a predicition that she will expose the falshoods that he is either advocating or accomodating, like him being Azor Ahai reborn. He may not speak that lie himself, but he's been lying to himself for quite a while. Technically normative questions like "is it right to sacrifice my innocent nephew to some fire demon" can't be lies, but in this case they effectively are because Mr Morality Stannis knows damn well that it isn't right, because deep down he doesn't believe it.

So she slays the lie. Doens't mean that she slays Stannis himself.

You don't think he made them swear fealty to him? He sure as hell would have considered them his men, but they joined his Narrow Sea lord Celtigar in turning their cloaks.

Davos explained Celtigar's situation quite eloquently.

[Jon Targaryen]

I take back what I said. I do think Dany and Stannis will meet because of the slayer of lies triplet. And Dany will end him then.

[Guest Other-in-law]

So she slays the lie. Doens't mean that she slays Stannis himself.

Indeed it doesn't, but I think it implies a general triumph over him. It would make Stannis' slaying of Dany seem rather unlikely. How would that play itself out?

Stannis: Behold, I am the mighty Azor Ahai reborn, all must bow before my might, gaze upon my fiery sword Lightbringer and the dragon that I have awoken from cold, dead stone!

Dany: That sword isn't fiery it's just glowing a little. Look it just went out when I got close to it. And that's not a real dragon either, it's just smoke and mirror's. Rhaegal, dracarys!

(Rhaegal breathes fire, shadow dragon disappears)

Stannis: Awww... (hangs head in disappointment)

Dany: There, there. I'm sure there's still lot's of important things for you to do. But you'll have have to exuse me, I have to go save the world from the others now.

Stannis: Grrr, if I can't be Azor Ahai then no one can...Die, Bitch! (stabs Dany to death, dragons fly away) Muhahahaha! (others come over Wall) Oh crap.

[dukehockey]

i think originally the 2nd book of the series was intended to show the end of all the kings but stannis and he was to establish up at the wall. with no kings dany was to storm in for the 3rd book as the others attacked and her and jon would die with the dragons slaying the others leaving stannis to rule westeros with his daughter marrying bran.

but since the world is too fun the series will never be completed.